Part IV

This is the four siblings (Marianne O’Malley, Jim, Ed, and Matt McGuire talking in July 2012.)

(This is transcribed from Tape 4 which was copied from CD 4]

[M: indicates male speakers and MA: indicates Marianne as the female speaker.]

M:I’m sorry, it wasn’t recording, would you mind saying it again? Say it even better this time. It’ll be superb. You’ll love it. I’ll love it, too.

MA:I think I said most of this last night, but what I remember is going upstairs, uh, having a bath by myself, with Sweetheart soap, uh, and just Nana and Kathleen being very solicitous of me at that time. I remember Grandma eating soft-boiled eggs out of an egg cup and she had several of them, as I recall.

M:The egg cup, it was like a small bowl, so you could do it either way. And, eat if out of the top end and have, have it broken off or you crack it up and flip it over on the other side and just put it in the bowl and eat it.

M:And, I remember growing up. I remember going upstairs and, uh, having perfect toast, just brown, not too brown, uh, a fried egg on top of the toast. You’d break it from the underside, hand-squeezed orange juice, and I remember Nana and Aunt Kathleen’s playing games with me whether it be Monopoly or another board game and spending hours doing so, and reading to me. And, time – they never seemed to be in a hurry. There was always sort of a lingering after-glow, languid sense of sitting up there, like time, time didn’t really make much difference.

M:So, it sort of felt like the – I feel like the 1930s and ‘40s, it’s a slice from the 1940s and it never changed.

M:Yes, yes, I mean I think that the time was different, I think there was more time to think, to contemplate, to read, and I think now our time is, uh, you know, I think it’s overscheduled among other things.

M:Do you remember anything she read to you?

M:I remember a book – one of the things I have always wanted to, but I probably won’t get to, get to it this time is, I remember she’s reading me a book about Mont Michele, which is in France, and it’s a book about a place that becomes an island at night and during the day, you can walk out to it or ride out to it. And, I’ve always wanted to go there. I know somebody that’s been there, but I’m going to be in …

M:So, when the tides change …

M:Right. You can – when the tides are out, you can walk to it. When the tides are in, you can’t. And, it – I remember a book that had sort of a sconce or a decoration along the top – she was reading out of some fairy tale book and I remember she used to read in the big – the big armchair. And, she had a very – she wouldn’t, she wouldn’t say 1946, she would say something like nineteen hundred and forty-six. Always – she had a – I thought she and Dad both had a sort of a melody – and Uncle Matt, too – to when they talked, there was sort of like a, a under-base tonality to what they said and I always thought it was lovely.

MA:You know, it’s funny, that just triggered a memory of me – they like John Boyle O’Reilly and his poems and they used to read poems …

M:Yes.

MA:… to us.

M:And, Kathleen knew some poems by heart.

MA:Yeah, well, she went – she took allocution lessons.

M:Um, huh, she did.

MA:And, um, I think she was very proud of what she could remember and the fact that she spoke them clearly also.

M:Do you remember Dad reading Journeys Through Bookland?

MA:I do. I do remember that. I remember reading it myself. I, I loved Journeys Through Bookland.

M:What is that Journeys Through Bookland? I never heard of that.

M:It’s a series of red books – red covers.

MA:Oh, I’ll show you when we come to the house.

M:Yeah. And, there were stories like from the Tales of the Arabian Knights and sort of selected stories from different places and different cultures.

MA:All the fables, the nursery rhymes – and they were illustrated, too, they had very interesting little illustrations.

M:Should go to Matt’s house, I got him a copy of books. Do you have the Journeys Through Bookland?

M:You gave me a set.

M:Oh. Okay.

MA:Yeah. And, I also have the set that Dad – I have the original set, too. So, if you want to give that to one of your kids, you can certainly have it.

M:I can eventually maybe get one for Clare (Matt’s granddaughter).

MA:Oh, yeah.

M:My granddaughter.

MA:Yeah, yeah.

M:I think that’s …

M:I never heard of them.

MA:Really?

M:It was a series of red books that Dad used to come in and read in our room.

M:Oh, yeah.

M:Maybe you were too young.

M:Yeah. I think so.

M:The only books that I remember were the Harvard Classics – upstairs – and Dad would take them down and read those stories in them. A lot of different stories and the one that always stood out in my mind was Jack the Giant Killer.

M:Right.

M:And, the Shoes of Swiftness.

M:I think that’s how the Journeys of Bookland …

MA:Journeys of Bookland had that – had all the Cinderella stories.

M:Yeah, Grimms …

M:And, they were both red.

M:Yeah, it was a red-covered book and kind of thick and long book.

M:Yeah.

M:I thought it was about that big.

M:That wide, you mean, about two inches wide and, yeah, about 10 inches tall or …

M:Yeah.

M:I think that was in the upstairs bookcase in the living room.

MA:Well, upstairs had all classics in the – but, that was Kathleen and Bill’s, that wasn’t ours.

M:And, I’m not sure they were ever opened.

MA:Yeah, exactly.

M:Well, they were never opened and I have – actually have them now and I started to read the Harvard Classics. They said the idea was you become educated if you read one a day and I dropped off it, but …

MA:Yeah.

M:So, you have Bill and Kathleen’s Harvard Classics?

M:I do.

M:That’s cool.

M:And, I have their – and I remember …

MA:You have the bookcase, right?

M:I have the bookcase, too, which is a veneer. It’s not deep wood and the very ironic part is I wanted to make sure that I always read the books, instead of just to have them. Because I’d asked if I could read them and they’d say, oh, no, they’re Matt’s (my Uncle Matt) books, so they were just on display.

M:They were Matt’s books?

M:Yeah, that’s what Kathleen said – “these are Matt’s books.”

MA:Now they are.

M:Matt’s – well, there you go.

MA:Yeah, right.

M:Little joke from Marianne. Very good.

MA:You finally got it.

M:Well, I did get the books and the ironic part is, is that the bookcase – the door swings open if it’s not locked, so I have it and it’s still locked.

MA:Oh, my gosh. Do you remember just going up in that living room and having the plastic on the …

M: Right.

MA:… the, uh, gold couch? And, the Bill – well, actually Grandma sat in, what I think became Bill’s chair, which was a blue chair.

M:Right. Blue velvet.

MA:And, then, Kathleen would sit in the space between the two rooms.

M:Right.

MA:And, um …

M:That was like a brown chair.

MA:But, you know, I don’t think they ever put the shades up in that room. It was – I just remember it as being dark. Maybe they did.

M:I remember occasionally I would come up there …

M:We were just there at night.

M:… yeah, I’d come up there – I’d come up at night and they’d  have the shades open and I’d walk around and Aunt Kathleen and, uh, Nana would be there sitting in the dark, not saying anything to each other.

MA:Yeah, that, that was …

M:And, they’d sit there for like half an hour or an hour. And, I’d say, what’re you doing? And, Nana would say “just resting my eyes, dear, just resting my eyes”.

MA:Well, maybe they were meditating before it became fashionable.

M:It was, it was strange.

MA:It was strange. Oh, my gosh.

M:Lights totally out.

MA:Okay, what else do I – I remember about Kathleen – Kathleen liked to make ambrosia.

M:What’s ambrosia?

MA:Ambrosia is marshmallows and cherries and, uh …

M:Mandarin oranges.

M:… mandarin oranges – it was their – whenever it was a potluck, she did that. Shea also liked to make pecan pie.

M:It was very good.

M:Minced meat pie.

MA:And, she made minced meat – the pecan, she burnt a couple of times as I recall.

M:Yup.

MA:And, then we would go up there occasionally for Thanksgiving.

M:Yeah.

MA:And, none of us would want – well, I shouldn’t say none of us – I didn’t – she put like huge chunks of onion in the dressing, do you remember that at all?

M:Yeah.

MA:And, you know, we would be like picking out the …

M:I wouldn’t be picking it out.

MA:Yeah. And, oh, the other thing was, she made plum pudding with a lemon sauce …

M:Yes, that was good.

MA:…that was fantastic.

M:That’s true.

MA:And, then – and it also comes, I guess, with a hard sauce, but she made the lemon sauce that was hot that went on it that was really good.

M:I remember Uncle Bill spending hours and hours refinishing the dining room table.

MA:And, do you know – do you remember what happened at the end of all that?

M:I do.

M:No.

MA:Aunt Kathleen – I mean after he had spent like almost the equivalent of weeks on the table …

M:Months.

MA:… months, whatever – Kathleen put newspaper down on top of the table in order to clean the chandelier and the newspaper print transferred onto the table.

M:Oh, my God.

MA:It was lucky we didn’t lose Aunt Kathleen at that time.

M:But, you always had something to read.

M:Really.

MA:What’d you say, Eddie?

M:You always had something to read.

MA:Always had something to read.

M:Bill did.

MA:Oh, he was unhappy. That was …

M:All I remember is the smell of the table.

MA:Yeah, I think it was like linseed oil, yeah.

M:And, the table was – the kind of table you – like a Duncan Phyfe and the, the mom and dad’s, um, chairs that came from wherever. Does anybody have those chairs?

MA:Oh, the maple chairs?

M:The wicker?

MA:I’ve got one downstairs.

M:The maple, wicker?

M:Yeah. I think we all have just one.

M:I don’t.

MA:I think she wanted us all to have one.

M:That ain’t happening.

MA:Whoa. What is this guy doing?

M:But, I do have the magazine stand and the shield table.

MA:I don’t like the way that guy’s driving.

M:Well, Kathleen – upstairs, we used to alternate the Thanksgivings

M:And, Kathleen had a wonderful sense of humor because when we were older, we always had an invited guest who came to dinner who was never there, who we had to put a plate out for.

MA:Oh, right, yeah.

M:And, we’d always tell her they had to go somewhere, they stepped away. And, the food would disappear on the plate, but she was always wondering where that person was.

M:Yeah, she enjoyed a joke.

M:So, she loved a joke.

MA:Do you guys remember going in – before it became Nana’s bedroom – the music room?

M:Yeah.

MA:And, Kathleen playing the piano and singing. She didn’t do it that often.

M:Marianne can help you on this one. So, I remember Dad playing the piano. He had tunes on the piano. Eddie doesn’t remember that, Matt doesn’t remember that. Do you remember that?

MA:I don’t. I remember him playing the clarinet.

M:He played the clarinet. Freddie was the one who could play by ear. Freddie Hoyer (our cousin).

M:I know that, I know that. So, we have this really interesting way to reconstruct.

M:Cause I remember humming tunes to him and having him pick it out. And, it wasn’t Freddie Hoyer.

M:It might’ve not been Freddie. I never saw Dad play the piano ever.

MA:Do you guys remember the piano that Mom and Dad got for me? They upholstered it, Mom upholstered it – talk about being crappie …

M:With tacks.

MA:… yes, with tacks. And, I had my, I think it was Ann for Mary Ann, M for McGuire in the middle of that and, yeah, that was really something else.

M:Do you play the piano?

MA:Do I play?

M:Yeah.

MA:No, I mean, I can play Fur Etude – oh, no, Fur Elyse, which is …

M:Fur …

MA:… and remember I was …

M:That was what Mom played.

[travel discussion]

MA:This is the right way to go. I remember taking lessons from somebody that was, uh, a friend of Wallace Sinclair.

M:Right. Wallace Sinclair.

MA:Yeah. And, uh …

M:They had two daughters, right?

M:Adele, was Adele one of them?

MA:Phyllis.

M:No, Adele [name] was the (our) babysitter.

M:Yeah. She was a good artist, too.

MA:She was.

M:I have her picture in my office now.

MA:Oh, great.

M:Which one?

M:It was a little dog.

M:She did – I didn’t even know – the last time I said I had this picture of a dog (a spaniel), it says Adele Tabyn and then Marianne reminded me of her and the picture – I said, it must be for somebody in the family, she say, no, that – everybody got a picture and that was a – that was the picture for me. So, I had it framed and now it’s in my office. And, a lady came in and, I was going to have a less than pleasant conversation. She says, well, I like your little dog.

MA:Uh, huh.

M:Broke the, broke the ice a little bit.

M:What did she do for everybody else, do you remember? I don’t remember a dog.

MA:Did you have a teddy bear, Jim?

M:I did. I had a teddy bear.

M:There was a panda, but that was ...

MA:Panda, that’s what I was thinking.

M:Panda in the house.

MA:But, I don’t remember what mine was.

M:Mine was invisible.

M:Okay.

MA:If I saw it, I …

M:That’s why I said it was invisible.

MA:Who has the picture …

M:Kathleen – Eddie was talking about Kathleen going into Boston and not – and Nana saying no and she didn’t go. But, I remember them sort of dressing up like sort of sisters, I mean, getting their finery on together …

MA:Who?

M:Kathleen and Nana.

MA:And, Nana.

M:At the end of Nana’s life I remember her mostly in sort of like a cotton shirtdress that …

MA:Yup.

M:… that she wore all the time.

MA:Yes.

M:Yeah, it would be – she was like the Norman Rockwell painting, it was one of those kind of country, country dress.

MA:Yes, American Gothic.

M:But, sometimes, she would get dressed up with Kathleen and …

MA:They would go to church.

M:Right.

MA:And, she had a fox stole, I think they both did.

M:[name] wore fox stoles, too.

MA:Huh? Do you remember that?

M:I remember Libby Fehley having a fox stole. I think I remember Nana did, too.

MA:Nana definitely had one. I’ve seen pictures of her with it and she liked to get an orchid, I think, um, on Mother’s Day. I think Dad did that for her.

M:She was – the pictures when she was younger – seemed really imposing. She seemed frailer when I – my childhood – when I knew her.

MA:Yeah.

M:And, she did – she must’ve had some children’s book – when we talked about reading before – because she was reading me some story, it’d be like Barbar with an elephant, but it the drawing wasn’t like Barbar and like the elephant was traveling here and there and having ice cream sodas at shops and stuff and that’s, that’s the story the she was reading to me when – one of the times, I guess, cause when I remember that one – where we’re sitting at the kitchen table and that’s where she would read to me – she’d be near the window or I would be and she’d be sitting next, next to it on another chair in the kitchen. And, the sink was on and the whole upstairs flooded and ran down the stairs and neither one of us knew about it until somebody downstairs said, it’s flooding.

M:It was our Mom who was – our Mom, Clare, who came up and looked at – looked at Nana and she’s like, you know, she was just – she was off in a – you did get a sense – I always got a sense when she was talking to you, that you were the only person in the room. That she was totally engaged and I try to do that with children. It takes work, but she was totally engaged with you. The mood that – I remember I loved her voice. I loved the time and the patience and the engagement, but I don’t remember ever seeing her smile. But, I do remember her laughing. She and Aunt Kathleen sometimes when Dad came by – I think that Dad could get them laughing. They would really laugh for quite a bit. Laugh so hard tears would come out of their eyes.

MA:Kathleen …

M:Kathleen always laughed and tears came out.

M:Yeah.

M:Grandma, too.

MA:Well, our brother Jimmie would be Kathleen going.

M:Yeah.

MA:She loved to dance.

M:Um, huh, that’s true.

MA:And, she loved – she loved laughing. She definitely loved laughing.

M:She did.

M:I remember Uncle Matt and Kathleen together – always trying to get Grandma to get a hearing aid, which she wouldn’t do.

MA:Oh, right, right.

M:She absolutely wouldn’t do it and then one time Matt dropped a silver dollar behind her and her heel went on that silver dollar so quick you wouldn’t – it was like, blink, and she said that’s mine now. [laughter] Just to prove that she couldn’t hear.

MA:I remember Uncle Matt always gave Nana money and she would give us a dollar here or there or, you know, when she had a chance.

M:Kathleen always had money stashed.

MA:Oh, my God, did she have money stashed?

M:Under the bed, in drawers, and …

MA:You – when I was cleaning up that house to, you know – oh, everywhere, under the – in the drawers, under the rugs, uh, I, I don’t know …

M:She was always giving a couple bucks to, to us and I know for Erin and Julie and Luke, they loved going there cause Kathleen would find a five dollar bill or something somewhere and just give it to them and they all – Erin particularly, when she was real little, she really loved Kathleen cause she was, she was so short, it felt like it was a contemporary.

MA:Yeah, Kathleen loved jewelry and our mother loved picking out jewelry and she really good at it.

M:Yeah, and she would dress – she let the girls – our children put all the jewelry on.

MA:Um, huh.

M:Kathleen did or Mom did? They’d go upstairs and she’d take them in the bedroom and she’d break out jewelry from the drawers and let them put on six or seven necklaces pieces and stuff.

MA:Who put them on?

M:Kathleen – Erin loved to go up and …

MA:Oh, Erin. I don’t …

M:Yeah, I said, for me, our children …

MA:Okay.

M:… at least ours with the girls because they got two daughters – the girls would go up and they would have the best time dressing up and they were putting on high heel – maybe that’s why Erin’s so good running the sand with high shoes cause she wore Kathleen’s and she even – and when they were still young, she’d even let them put on dresses.

M:I think that when you talked about Erin wearing Kathleen’s shoes. I think I can actually envision that.

MA:Would you?

M:I mean just picture that. Cause I think …

M:You can see her and Kathleen’s …

MA:Oh, absolutely. And, Erin used to paint Kathleen’s nails, too, right?

M:Erin?

M:And, she’s really good at nails now. She has the Celtics all over. Beautiful intricate Celtic drawings. She’s – it’s kind of nice because Erin is probably a bigger Celtics fan than Mom which is almost impossible, but Erin is …

M:I think my favorite team is – in Boston is the Celtics. I think I’m a bigger Celtics fan than certainly Red Sox or Patriots fan. I remember listening to the games at night and I remember listening together and the games being on radio with the whole family. It’s very intimate, fun thing to do.

M:Well, Dad when he was in the hospital with a heart attack was paying attention to sports. The Red Sox were playing on one of those days and he was keeping up with that and he’d keep up with the Celtics, but Mom was always listening to the Celtics.

M:Yeah.

M:She didn’t miss a game.

MA:I remember the Celtics being listened to more than any other team at home. Especially, Johnny Most. Dad I think sometimes would imitate, uh, Johnny Most. Now, did Kathleen ever talk to guys about being a U.S. Marshal?

M:Yes.

MA:I mean, I think that is fascinating that she, you know, this little tiny bit of a thing would be riding in an airplane taking somebody from …

M:Yeah, she talked about transporting a prisoner.

M:Really?

M:How did – how did she get that job:

M:I think Matt was, uh, in Washington when she, when she had it. Matt went down – he had a law office in, in Boston with Paul Dever, who later became Massachusetts governor and then, uh, he went, he went down with the Franklin Roosevelt administration, towards the end of that and he was – wound up in the Justice Department and he actually, fairly young in his career, was serving as U.S. Deputy Attorney General, the number two slot in the Justice Department and then he got appointed to a judgeship. So, Matt was down there in the very, very good position and I think he might’ve known some people, uh, that you would – we talked about jobs in the old days – in the political scheme of things, the way things worked in the early 60s and actually through the Chicago conventions, is that you, you took care of people, if they were qualified in different jobs, and that was fairly standard. You did the work, you got somebody who was qualified, if they could do the work, they got the job and they kept the job. And, uh, so, patronage was common.

MA:So, how old do you think she was when she did that job?

M:Oh, I’d say she was probably …

MA:Thirties?

M:Late thirties.

M:I’d say late thirties and I, I do sort of remember talking to Uncle Matt once and saying, I think Aunt Kathleen applied for the job and got and I think when Matt found out she had that job, he either talked to her or talked to someone to make sure she “ungot” the job.

M:Well, that may be.

MA:Okay.

M:I’m just thinking that …

M:Did Bill and Kathleen live in our house all the time we were there or did they get married before moving in?

M:I mean, the story was that …

MA:I think they moved there to 21 Lawndale Street, Belmont, almost immediately after they were married. Well, they lived on Clarendon Road in Belmont. Everybody lived on Clarendon Road, right? And, I think Nana and, uh, Kathleen – I don’t know if Bill was in the picture at that point, probably he was – they lived in one house on Clarendon Road.

M:Bill was a friend of Freddie Hoyer’s, right?

MA:Right.

M:Well, wasn’t his brother somebody?

M:He was a …

M:He was an Irish Christian brother who taught at Fordham University.

M:And, wasn’t he …

M:Taught at Fordham.

M:Wasn’t he a cousin of one of our relatives …

M:Who went to Fordham.

M:I mean wasn’t he a friend of one of our – brother – who was the brother that he used to come to the house with – Brother somebody or other? (Brother Keane?)

M:Oh, that was a relative of Uncle Bill’s from Canada.

MYeah.

MA:Yeah, that’s true, but there was another relative, um, Freddie Hoyer …

M:It was an Irish priest …

MA:… connection and they used to come to visit Freddie’s house and I guess Kathleen met Bill while she was at Freddie’s.

M:And, she was in her 40s when she got married.

MA:And, I mean, she loved Kitty.

M:You, uh, -- a little bit older, but I, for me, I was raised on Lawndale Street, they were in there when I was born …

M:Right.

M:In that time frame – and the house was a two-family house, so my guess is that Kathleen and Bill were there. I know I had pneumonia at three or four and, certainly, I know Kathleen and Bill were in the house at that time.

MA:Well, my memory is that Uncle Matt bought that house with the idea that Grandma and Kathleen would be in one part and Mom and Dad would be in the other.

M:And, you know why? Because if they weren’t in that house with our Dad, you know where they’d be?

M:With Uncle Matt.

M:They’d be in Washington with him, which he didn’t want.

MA:Right, exactly, exactly, so  we all benefited from it in the long run.

M:Yup.

MA:We really did.

M:You have those little twists of fate there.

MA:Although, I think it was hard for Mom.

M:It was really hard.

M:Yes, I think she always had the feeling that she didn’t own the house and she would occasionally get in dust-ups with Uncle Matt and, uh, it would be okay, but …

MA:Yeah.

M:Well, I think she never was, she never was, uh, sure that things couldn’t be removed and taken away at any time and there were different – different times when Matt was looking at houses. I think he looked across the street where, uh, the Daleys wound up a one point – of maybe buying that house and selling this one or buying something somewhere else, so I think – and, I think she always had a fear if the …

M:Let’s go there now.

M:No, you got a long ways to go, but I think I just went dead. I think I just did.

M:Is it plugged in here?

MA:We can look on our thing.

M:Yeah, if it does …

MA:Yeah.

M:Just went dead.

MA:Let me look at the …

M:Here we go.

M:We’ll get back to it.

M:No, we had about 11 miles to go.

M:We’re gonna find a different way to go back.

M:Well, by the time we go back …

M:Continue 7.9 miles.

M:We’re still heading this way, it was 15 miles.

M:Anyway, she – Mom, Mom was always concerned and there was always the white-glove inspection when, when Matt and Eleanor came by visiting from Washington, D.C., and I think it was probably rougher because Eleanor was visiting her folks so then Matt would come by and normally Matt was the one who would stay for a few days in the house. And, I think, uh, I think, early on – Mom and Eleanor were the greatest of friends, but I think early on, she was just concerned that, you know, if we displeased Matt or displeased Eleanor that the house would be gone and everybody …

M:She’d actually get depressed when Matt came.

M:Yes, she did, and I remember as a little guy (Ed McGuire speaking), maybe 10 years old, I got really mad. I had a big blowout, and as you all  know, it’s possible that if I hit my temper level, if you do, it can be explosive and at about eight or ten years old, I went upstairs and had it out with Uncle Matt in the kitchen cause Mom was real upset.

M:Tell me about that.

M:I just, I just told him, that my Mom was worried about whether we were gonna live in the house or whether we were gonna be moved out and that it was stressful every time somebody came up and just felt like this wouldn’t be our house and I didn’t want my mother feeling that way.

M:So, you told Matt that when you were ten? Good for you.

M:And, what was his reaction?

M:Well, he was fine, he was, he was pretty good. I think, I think we grew on it because – I think Matt was very intimidating for, for a while, and what we didn’t pick up was his sense of humor and his love of different things and I think, as we got older – and probably because he was used to being in court – the closeness and the fun of seeing Matt became greater and greater and for me – for Jimmie and I we – when we were old enough to go get him, we picked him up – one time at South Station. And, Matt would take us as young men to go to Locke-Obers in Boston and we couldn’t believe how fast Uncle Matt could walk. He could walk circles around us and, uh, I think when he felt we were growing up a little bit, he’d treat us as equals, but Matt also had a way of conversing with you or talking to you just like the Jesuits do …

M:Always putting you on the spot.

M:… yeah, he was always putting you on the spot, so it was an interesting thing. Somebody asked me was I ever nervous about going and being in a courtroom or having to answer a question on my feet, I said, not after the Jesuits and Uncle Matt, how could that be possible? I wasn’t the least bit scared. But, uh – Mom was concerned and I think Matt was very generous, but he was also – probably not having children – more formal than Dad.

M:Yeah, I think he was loving and loved small children and loved it when we had children and playing with them.

M:But, for boys, I think it was more – especially the ages where we were getting to know him – it more you had to act a certain way and you needed a certain education and you needed to prepare yourself and – the other night, we talked to Mike, his son, and we were talking on the phone, we were just saying it was a different era. They came out of the depression. They came out a time where when they were young, they had to be more serious. Not that we were – well, we certainly did a lot of things, but I don’t think they had the same luxury to do the kind of things that we did. There was the depression, there was a big war, there were other things going on, so that children of that era had to be adults when they were children and we had the luxury of maturing into adults and being children and playing and I don’t think, I don’t think that was exactly their experience, so maybe that’s a little bit, too, of being able to play with children because, you’ve acted as a child, so you can move into their world and share it with them. I don’t think they had that kind of experience to be able to share that type of a relationship. That’s just my opinion.

M:I think that Dad certainly had a very rich and broad – I mean, you know – being in Charlestown the other day made me think about kids running around the streets there, too. And, that they – you know, they were a pretty clever group of people.

M:They were very clever.

M:They were very – the thing that – our kids play cribbage – but, the idea of playing games together, um, I think Dad did that much more than, than Uncle Matt.

M:Well, let me back up to where we were talking about maybe Matt and Kathleen and, and Dad, cause I grouped them all together, but if I separate Dad out, Dad had stories, he made up songs for all of us. He played voices. He carried us around on his shoulders. He did all of those things. Those weren’t things that, that Matt did so much. They weren’t things that …

M:There’s this picture of Matt and Kathleen, the older siblings, that Matt, my son has in the house. Even at like eight or nine years of age, Uncle Matt was dressed like Lord Fauntleroy and Kathleen had a parasol and there was this …

MA:Oh, my gosh, that picture in Nana’s, uh, you know, the music room, of Uncle Matt, yeah, exactly like – with the long hair and the …

M:So, I think of Matt maybe as the oldest child had a different set of responsibilities.

M:And, do you know who Matt looks like in that picture? Shamus O’Malley (Mike O’Malley’s son).

MA:Yes, he does.

M:It’s spooky.

[talking routes and directions]

M:Dad was very …

MA:You know what – do you remember Dad had his little workshop downstairs?

M:A very small workshop.

M:On Bill’s side.

M:It was on Bill’s side of the cellar.

MA:Bill’s side of the …

M:Right at the front end.

MA:What?

M:Oh, I never thought of it. That was on Bill’s side.

MA:On Bill’s side of the thing and, um, I just remember it was very neat and Dad like to paint and I used to like to go help – paint, Daddy, can I paint, too? And, I can just remember being outside with him, too, working in the yard.

M:He loved to garden.

M:And, you like to garden, too.

MA:I do, that’s I think where I got it.

M:And, he liked to garden and transplant stuff. He was gardening all the time.

M:He was pretty resourceful. Getting those concrete slabs to make a patio.

MA:Oh, my gosh. I wonder – I was asking if anybody looked to see if they were still there.

M:Didn’t he have Braggs’ hedges?

M:I didn’t know he dug up Braggs’ hedges.

M:Oh, absolutely.

M:Oh, really?

M:Yeah. And, he kept them going, too.

M:That’s interesting.

MA:And, Mom particularly liked the white hydrangeas.

M:Yes.

MA:She wanted to have the white because you could see them at night and so she liked that, you know, the white and green.

M:George Harrison used to do gardens that you could see at night and have a different look at night. Did you know that?

MA:No, I didn’t.

M:Yeah, he used to garden – set up gardens for how they would look at night.

MA:Huh.

M:That’s interesting to hear. I’d never heard of that myself at all.

MA:Yup, she liked that.

M:I’ve always like white hydrangeas.

MA:I can remember …

M:She used to say hyDraingeas.

MA:HyDRAINgeas. I had the flu one year. I think maybe when, I don’t know, was 12, 13. Somewhere in that – and I was really, really sick, I mean, I – and we had a hammock out in the backyard, um, attached to the tree.

M:Yup.

MA:And, then a pole and then I remember being out there and, you know, Mom bringing me out stuff to drink and just trying to get better there.

MA:[PDS Museum, yeah.] I loved that yard, that was just a nice size yard.

M:Unfortunately, it’s still there, but it’s really super overgrown.

M:The yard – one of the striking things about getting older – going back and seeing it – I remember Eddie and I playing catch in the side yard and thinking this is like Fenway Park. (Home of the Red Sox.)

M:It was long and – and it’s still there.

MA:I can remember Dad doing – playing with you guys out there.

M:He did, all the time. He played with us in the backyard.

MA:Yeah.

M:And, we played from where the concrete patio was to the tree next to the Olivierie’s and Connor’s and playing catch with Dad. He was very good, but he would always tell us to catch it with two hands and if we didn’t – we were catching one-handed – he would throw it at our head. And, if you caught it with one hand and it’d come out of the glove, maybe hit your head and then he would say, I told you two hands. So, he was very loving, but if we didn’t do the two hands, he did throw it at the head.

M:I always why Jim, when he played football, when they threw the football at my head.

MA:I can …

M:Oh, yeah, I remember (Matt McGuire speaking) you threw one at his – I played football with you, you threw a football at me as hard as possibly could. By the time I started to play touch football with kids in my grade, it was – none of them – like Ed’s coming – it wasn’t hard at all, I mean …

M:Dad with a baseball really, really played catch with us a lot in the backyard and helped us. I think he tried and helped a little bit of us, skating. The swimming, he didn’t do. Mom, Mom took care of that (taking us to swimming lessons at the Underwood pool). And, then the other thing which was, was nice to me [discussing driving directions].

MA:I don’t know if you guys remember this, but Jimmie and Eddie --  one time you guys were fighting [discussing driving directions] …

M:So, Dad helped play – the other thing that he taught us was the boxing. And, I really, when I was a real little kid, I, I liked the boxing part and when I was at Mount Trinity – and I only went there for the first grade, there was a kid that was a couple grades up further, I wanted to fight with him everyday so I could practice. He didn’t want to do it. He was about a size – a head and a half over me, but I wanted to meet him down at the bottom of the hill and everyday, we’d be – so now we gotta box. So, I …

MA:I think he really wanted you guys to know how to defend yourselves, but I remember one time when you and Jimmie were fighting and I think you were fighting in the front hall.

M:No, we were fighting in the bedroom.

MA:In the bedroom and Dad said, you want fight, fight.

M:Well, we weren’t fighting when Dad came in, we had been our usual struggles and we slept in, in two beds that were next to your room …

MA:Yeah.

M:… and we were head-to-head and at the time, I think we switched around – both our heads were towards the middle of the room. We were sleeping head-to-head and I guess Dad had enough of us having problems and arguing all night and so he came in about one or two o’clock in the morning or whatever it was. Probably one o’clock or so and pulled us out of bed by the hair of our heads, both of us, got us in the room and said, okay, you wanta fight, start fighting. And, we go like, oh, Dad, no, we don’t wanta fight. No, we’re okay.

MA:Oh, my God. I was dying.

M:If you don’t start hitting one another, I’m going to start hitting you. So, you better start hitting one another.

M:You gotta fight with me, if you don’t fight with one another.

MA:Yeah. Oh!

M:And, it’s funny, other than that, Dad was really mad and as strong – and we learned later, not only was he a great boxer and he taught us that, but when he was teaching in high school as soft-spoken as he was, they gave him all the tough kids to handle, all the bad kids. He could take care of himself. But, but, the beauty of Dad, although he got us going, he got mad – I was never afraid of Dad.

MA:No.

M:I was afraid that night.

M:Well, I knew he was mad.

M:Aha, aha.

M:I wasn’t afraid that Dad was gonna hurt me in some way.

MA:Hurt you. Yes. Yeah, not in that way, but …

M:As a young man, I was never …

MA:You didn’t want to cross Dad.

M:And, I was never physically afraid of Dad as I got to be a teenager or anything, so I knew he could take care of himself, but I just was never scared that way by Dad.

M:I don’t think he’d ever really …

M:And, I knew – I also had a tremendous respect for him and realized that there’s – I  just felt that there was no way that you could fight with this guy and come out ahead. I mean, uh, maybe you never thought that Ed, but I, I ...

M:No, I had the sense that …

MA:You know, Dad was smart, I mean he was just so – I mean, he would figure a way to trick you out of something before he would ever come to fisticuffs.

M:I never thought he was …

MA:But, he could take care of himself if he had to, I mean, he …

M:We didn’t have [inaudible] but we had – we got spanked a little bit. I can’t say we never got spanked, but that was normal and it was never overboard. Uncle Fred was the one that had the strap and he …

M:Used the strap.

M:I never knew that.

M:Yeah, Uncle Fred had a strap, you got out of line, you got – he took the strap.

M:Did Uncle Fred use the strap on you?

M:Oh, he never did anything to me.

M:Well, you know, I wasn’t really particularly afraid of Dad or, uh, Uncle Matt. The person who worried me was Mom. She had a very dark temper, I thought. And, I found it much …

[driving direction discussion]

MA:Much, what?

M:I found it much harder to assess her moods. I thought she was, uh – I thought Dad and Uncle Matt – I could pretty much get their personalities. Uncle Matt –

MA:She was more passive-aggressive, you would say?

M:I just think she, she was – I thought she was pretty moody myself.

M:Typical mom.

MA:It was at that time.

M:Yeah, I think she could be, uh – she could be nasty, too. I mean, you know, she, uh – although she’d do anything and help you through anything, but, uh, she wanted to have, you know, she wanted to, you know, sometimes she wanted to be the center ...

M:Tell me about her dark temper, Matt, I don’t know that. Tell  me about that.

M:I, I found her, um – cause I got along with her better as I got older, but when I was growing up – with something getting frustrated, gritting her jaw, about something that had gone on. I just – I guess I remember Dad as sunnier. Even Uncle Matt, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t find …

M:He was frustrating.

M:I, I felt like he was giving you a go, no matter what you did, but I didn’t think he was giving me – I think you thought he was giving you a go as Jim personally. I thought he just gave everybody a go. So, I felt like, you know, it was just my time in the barrel.

M:I kind of shifted on Uncle Matt, cause I think Uncle Matt was a great flirt and I think he always put boys on the spot.

M:Yeah, yeah, true, true.

MA:He did.

M:Men.

MA:Yeah, all men.

M:And, he flirted with the women and all guys he put on the spot.

M:Yeah, yeah.

MA:I think that’s true.

M:And, Mom, I don’t know, I found her – I, I never quite – I never quite could get a set on her. I never could quite figure out what kind of mood she was in although, at times, she be – she seemed in a pretty good mood and, uh, she was pretty encouraging if you wanted to do something or play – like I remember once, I wanted to play outside in the rain and she said, why don’t you get dressed, and I, you know, I put boats down the gutter and I thought that was really fun that she would say it was fine.

[Okay, guys, I’m going to stop.]

MA:Me, oh, well.

M:Is it running?

MA:Yeah. What I remember about, um, Sommerville, you know, it was almost like an obligation. That was something like every Sunday or every other Sunday.

M:Yeah, I think, maybe, maybe once a month or twice.

M:I don’t remember it that frequent.

M:It wasn’t that degree of frequency and, generally, we sort of came both ways. For Mom, when Mary (Clare McGuire’s older sister) would come out and we were in Belmont, they’d always say the rich McGuires or something. Mary’d make some kind of comment like that, so, uh …

M:Well, Mary – I think Mary and Mom both – they could, they could be cutting. And, I, you know, I think Mary probably – was probably a pretty good person. I like Uncle Fred a great deal, I though he was really a good guy. Mary, I didn’t care a great deal for. I always found that she’s – sort of jerky or something – jerky around and stuff like that.

M:Well, I guess, it probably depends on how, how you rub – as there was Larry and I got along really well. Probably not so much, but Larry and I were about the closest in age. And, uh, I spent – I probably spent more time with them, so Uncle Fred to me was really great and I think Mary probably was really kind and thoughtful and she was very polite, but she could have a cutting – the Irish cutting tone or whatever.

MA:Yeah.

M:So, she could, she could make the point and, you know, throw a zinger on it right away, which is typical of the Irish. But, she was always making that great chocolate cake and the she was always pretty –

M:That was a great chocolate cake.

M:… pretty, pretty considerate to me. I remember going over when they lived in the triple-deckers near Lincoln Park and they rent out a couple and they, they lived on one and I used to go over there and play a lot of basketball, go up, play other people with Larry. We’d play – we’d team up and we’d play other kids, kids around the neighborhood.

M:Larry would come and visit us in Belmont and go sledding. I think you two visited the most because – Donnie, you know, I, I got along okay with him, but not great and I think I went over there sometime.
M:But, Donnie, Donnie was the – for Fred, Donnie was – could do no wrong, cause Donnie was kind of an operator and a good kid, but Molly, who was the gold standard was like – and with Mary in school being a lawyer, you’d think it would be just like that, but she was the gold standard and got, to my way of thinking, got very little attention paid to her and the most attention was paid to Donnie because he was funny and he could sort of wheel and deal and talk to people, so – and he was – wasn’t doing anything, but I think Fred …

M:Molly was a sweetheart.

M:Yeah.

MA:Well, Molly really loved you, Jimmie. I think she felt very close to you. And, um, and Larry felt close to – I was sort of like a little bit above it all in the sense I didn’t really have a peer …

M:No, you didn’t have – well, Molly was …

MA:Well, no, I mean, I – it just – I didn’t relate to …

M:Molly was a young enough …

M:Who’s older you or Larry? Larry’s older, isn’t he?

M:Yeah, Larry’s older and Molly would be too young for you …

MA:Yup.

M:… because age differences …

MA:Were huge then.

M:Between us all now, Matt’s five years younger than I am and we’re – everybody’s the same age.

M:Sure.

M:But, as kids, for three or four years, you know …

M:Big difference.

M:… you don’t have the same friends, you don’t have the same interests, you don’t hand out, so Molly – Molly was younger than, than me, so – and I’m three behind you. Molly’s probably five or six years younger. Larry’s a year younger than I am, so – and Molly’s probably like six years younger.

M:So, is she your age?

MA:I thought she …

M:I think Molly’s – she’s in between Ed and me. So, two or three years.

M:Two years, probably.

M:64, I think. I think she’s 66, 67.

M:So, and Donnie was my same exact age. Donnie was born in September.

MA:Really?

M:Yeah, Donnie was only two months older – uh, younger than I am.

M:I just remember Molly as a sweet disposition. Just lovely.

MA:Yeah, she was, she was really …

M:But, the light didn’t – the light wasn’t shining on Molly, the light was shining on Donnie.

M:I also remember …

MA:Well, I don’t know, I, I don’t think Mom liked Donnie one iota. I don’t – I think she thought he got you into trouble all the time.

M:Who me?

MA:Yeah, it’s something …

M:Did he get you in trouble?

M:Well, no, because Donnie would be Matt’s, Matt’s age, he wasn’t getting people into trouble …

MA:No, but, he was …

M:… but, he was a schemer and …

MA:… that’s exactly, I mean, he would do something and then, and then, Jim would get blamed for doing it. And, that’s my memory, what can I say?

M:I mean I think …

M:Do you have a particular memory for that?

M:I think that, yeah, I think that, uh, people have been trying to …

MA:Not really, I think really …

M:Donnie was sort of, he was sort of a bull-shitter.

M:Yeah, he was a bull-shitter, sort of ...

M:And, he was always trying to get something going or something.

M:Yeah, a sort of – sort of – just flip side of the other side of the family, Jimmie ______. I always thought Jimmie was – was an operator.

MA:He was an operator.

M:He was a storyteller and was that entertaining, but he wasn’t always, you know, applying and, and Donnie never applied it, but he was entertaining and Fred liked the entertainment. But, he wasn’t doing well in school. He didn’t – he wasn’t the brightest, but he was entertaining, so Donnie was the bright light and Larry had a little trouble stuttering and other things. I think they liked Larry, but he was, he was a little bit more conflict – there was a little more conflict.

MA:I remember that.

M:And, Molly was the great student, Donnie was getting no where and was the most entertaining for Mary and Fred.

M:I don’t think Fred was entertaining at all. I remember him being a risk-taker.

M:Oh, maybe later in life, but as a kid he was …

M:He was very entertaining.

M:Yeah, I don’t mean funny Fred, he was always – he was always doing stuff, scheming, whatever.

M:And, he hustled.

M:And, he hustled and he was doing stuff and I think Fred (who had only a high school education) really liked that and probably – I got this from Fred cause I think Fred was really a nice guy and, I was very close to Fred, I think was spectacular, but Fred had a chip on his shoulder for education. What’d you need it for? He just didn’t think you needed a college degree. Didn’t think education was any good.

M:It helps explain something for me cause Fred – when I was young, I sort of saw him as a military hero and ______ and he was really very nice, but he was – but, when after I graduated from medical school, he told me felt that I really had become distant and, and felt like I was better than them.

M:Yeah, Fred had a tremendous chip on his shoulder on education and it’s like people – I’ve worked with people, and they said, you college kids, and I got some other kind of dismissive remark and Fred was kind, he was thoughtful, but he didn’t get the point of education and he thought maybe people with education were getting an advantage that they didn’t deserve on everything, so Fred, Fred definitely had a chip on his shoulder about schooling and that’s why he really didn’t and he seemed like he didn’t care about Donnie whether he went to school or not, as long as he was entertaining. And, he didn’t really care …

M:And, he became what Fred was.

M:Yeah, and the focus was not on school. The focus for us was on school. The focus on them was not on doing well in school.

MA:Yeah, I know, it’s funny, I was just saying that to somebody the other day because, um, Mom always said that their focus was on education, to provide for us to have the education so that when we became adults, we would be on our own and she always felt, from Mary and Fred – now, I don’t know how Mary felt, but I guess, you know …

M:It’s Fred, it wasn’t Mary. Mary, Mary didn’t fight it. Mary didn’t – with her law degree and, and she had certainly a great intellect, but she, she wasn’t pushing Fred. I think they clearly loved one another.

MA:Oh, yeah.

M:And, they were bright, but he had a definite of education or maybe an inferiority thing with education, which is, you say, is not worth anything because you feel that you’re less because you didn’t get it. So, he didn’t value education. Never did.

MA:So, and, but …

M:Well, actually, that helps explain something that I didn’t understand before.

MA:Um, huh.

M:Cause he, he said that to me pretty directly. What’s become of Jimmie McGuire?

M:Well, because we were in Belmont, and it was – they come over, you know, the rich McGuires in Belmont, just because you lived in the town, because Sommerville back then is not the town of Sommerville it is now.

MA:Oh, no.

M:Nor Charlestown. Sommerville was kind of, uh, you know, rough getting by area and people were in triple-deckers (three floor houses), not because they make – not because they’re making money …

MA:Definitely.

M:… but, because that’s the best you can do and if you could get some money, you know, you’re in a triple-decker.

MA:Wasn’t Dad …

M:It was a pretty place when I lived there.

MA: wasn’t, um, Dad responsible for getting Fred jobs?

M:I think, I think Dad helped with some. I think Uncle Matt …

MA:Uncle Matt, too.

M:Uncle Matt got Fred the job with the Weights …

M:Weights and Measures (Sommerville City).  So, he used to go to the gas stations and check the pumps, make sure that they were reading out right.

M:Well, two interesting things, you know, starting with Uncle Fred, you know, I had a conversation …

M:How old were you?

M:[inaudible] I was probably, early college 18, 19, 20. And, I said (Matt McGuire speaking), well, you know, I just asked him a question about, you know, how he liked Sommerville, you know, I didn’t think I put a spin on that …

MA:Um, huh.

M:… and, so, okay, first thing, he (Uncle Fred) said, I think it’s a dirty, crumby, you know, nasty place to live, he said, you know – or I asked him how he liked his job and how he was with his job and he said, I think it’s a really bad boring job and stuff like that. I thought, holy shit. And, I’m not – you know, this is like, you know, sometimes you ask people questions and they like, no kidding. The other thing that I think was different Mary and Fred, you know, they had, you know, an estimated time of arrival to depart Sommerville always in their minds. They wanted out. They didn’t want to spend the money on education.

MA:So, they spent it on (getting ready for retirement) …

M:I don’t think, yeah, I don’t think it’s, it’s – wasn’t just the money thing. I think …

M:No, not all the time.

M:… Mary didn’t, Mary didn’t control it and Fred didn’t value it.

M:Yeah.

M:He just didn’t value it.

M:And, and, I think, you know, I mean their dream was – they want get down to the Cape and get out of – well, it’s a couple – they wanted down to the Cape and get out of Sommerville.

M:But, when they got to Summit Avenue (another location in Sommerville), which is a lot different than triple-deckers, even though, the triple-deckers would be a great thing to be owning. But, when they got to Summit Avenue that, that was, that was a better setup for them. That was near a school. It was a nice home, uh, they had what they wanted and, I think they, yeah, that was a good time.

MA:I remember the triple-deckers to some degree.

M:I don’t remember their house.

M:I remember, I remember …

M:The other house was near Lincoln Park, just as you came in, before you got to Lincoln Park, uh …

M:Was the kitchen in the back?

M:Yeah.

M:Yeah, the kitchen was in the back.

MA:The kitchen was in the back and then the dining room was like here and then the living room was in front of that. That was another thing …

M:Yeah, that’s sort of like, like, I think it’s a little like, I think a little bit longer and bigger than Charlestown.

MA:Yeah.

M:Cause that was a little narrow, but those houses were a little bit – they were longer …

MA:Yeah.

M:… and they had the first two floors and they rented the third one.

MA:Who did?

M:Mary and Fred. The triple-decker. They rented a floor.

M:I – see, you’re making me – now, I’m remembering at Waverly Oaks and, uh, picnics there with …

MA:Waverly Oaks was …

M:With Sinclairs …

MA:That was a wonderful …

M:That’s the first time …

MA:… that’s my happiest memories of them.

M:That’s when I first experienced the smell of beer. It almost made me puke cause I thought it smelled so bad. And, I really like beer now.

MA:Well, Aunt Mary used to always make that chocolate cake for that, that particular thing, which was often my birthday.

M:The Waverly Oaks gatherings were the Sinclairs, the Gravelles, the Noons, the Sullivans sometimes would come and there’d always be games and …

MA:What did you say, Nuvelles?

M:Sullivans.

MA:No, before that. You said …

M:Gravelles.  

MA:Oh, the Gravelles. The Gravelles …

M:And, which Sullivans?

MA:… the Noons.

M:Johnny and Kathy and …

M:There was another – Grace Sullivan.

M:Yeah, but not for that, it was – those family kids would play baseball and softball …

MA:Oh, going exploring, that was my favorite thing in the whole world.

M:And, we’d run around through the woods and, uh, we’d played ball. Hank would always give the boys a couple of strikes and the girls would get about eleven.

MA:Um, huh.

M:So, he was always, uh …

MA:You smashed your knee.

M:Well, that was when we were just up there. I ran into a tree, kinda catch – and fell.

MA:Yeah, I know, but you, you did …

M:Yeah, those gatherings were great and sometimes we’d do the same thing. We’d gather. We’d get together with a number of people at Revere Beach.

MA:Yes.

M:I can remember peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and they always got sand in them.

MA:And, Mom would make orange juice. She’d freeze it and then by the time we got there, it would be still cold and we had Ritz crackers and peanut butter.

M:And, I’m trying to think of whether it was one of the, uh …

M:Yeah, and we looked for one of the nephews or nieces on the Noon, maybe, I know, Ellie who was adopted by …

M:Right.

M:… Ruth and Hank and a brother, Buddy. I think there might’ve been one other one that was, that got taken out in an undertow and drowned one year. Somebody drowned in that group of the people that went and I think it might’ve been a Noone.

MA:I remember it being gray, the gray sand, making the castles, the castles …

M:Yeah.

MA:Dad swimming, being very proud that he could swim as well as he did.

M:He just swam straight out, he didn’t swim across, he’d go straight out.

MA:And, Mom, not being able to swim at all. But, still made sure we all …

M:At one time there was a boardwalk on that beach.

M:There was a board – there was a big pavilion and then all the way down at the end, there was rocks.

MA:I remember going on a rollercoaster with you …

M:Cyclone.

MA:… um, and Mom and then I said I would never, ever do that again.

M:Yeah, well, the only time I remember …

MA:Mom went though.

M:… that had the sharpest turns and one of those coasters came off and went in the ocean one time, came off that, uh, track, but I remember the roller coaster ride with Jimmie and I and we were in the front seat and I kept on saying, cause he was pushing the other way – stop trying to knock me out of the car, cause that first drop, it’s, it’s almost like inverted. We were in the first car.

MA:And, we used to play that …

M:Liked to go with your hands up.

M:Yeah.

MA:… yeah, roll that – that roll goes, what do they call it, ski ball? Where you roll it up into a …

M:I did the rollercoaster with Dad in the last car and I started praying.

MA:Oh, God. Did he like it?

M:I didn’t.

MA:No, Dad, did he like it?

M:They had the double Ferris wheel there, too, and I got, I got stuck, uh – it might’ve been a day – we were at the top of the double Ferris wheel one – the top – and we got stuck for like a half an hour.

MA:Tony and I – that happened to us, too.

M:It was stuck like for a half hour up on the top and …

MA:God, that’s a nasty feeling.

M:Yeah.

MA:So, yeah,  now do you, do you remember just going up with Mom and Dad or just maybe just Mom to Waverly Oaks? And, I mean, I remember going with you.

M:Different parts, we went up …

M:We played stoplights (“red lights) and all kinds of things.

M:We played with both of them up on – there was a pavilion park area – sometimes we were up there, but they, they, the big parties, we parked – you go around to the left, there was a parking lot.

MA:Right.

M:We were up on the hill and we went down to the ball field. The times that we went up with Mom, just by her – sometimes the pavilion, but the other times we’d go over to the duck pond, which was on the right.

MA:Right.

M:And, you know, we’d walk around there and feed the ducks.

MA:But, we would start at the street and then follow the – through the woods in there. At least, that’s what I remember – going up to the duck pond.

M:Yeah, you could.

MA:And, uh, we have some beautiful pictures of you and I at the duck pond.

M:I have pictures of Joshua (Jim’s son) and Mom (Clare McGuire) at the duck pond. The duck pond was just a really special place.

MA:That was a great, I mean, I loved Revere Beach, too, I mean, I, I really enjoyed being at the beach. I think we really had a lot – remember that …

M:They were – in the summer, they were just – liked there – there were just lots of people there.

M:Lots of people.

MA:Yeah.

M:Big gatherings. Great big gatherings.

MA:Remember we used to play the squares and the circles that you jumped and had to jump all the way around on one foot and …

M:Yeah, [inaudible] I mean, when I …

M:And, then you could claim …

MA:Right, yeah.

M:You dropped the stones in ( a square, then you couldn’t step in it) – you made more than 10 you had to drop the …

MA:Yeah.

M:… you had to throw it in, yeah.

M:And, then no one could step on that.

MA:That’s right and, and …

M:You could rest on it.

MA:Yeah.

M:I remember Revere as being – go there – the days seemed very long, I mean, you do there …

MA:All day.

M:… and we had – and we’d come home at night and you could see and, I felt like a kid and playing as a kid – it was enough, you know, I never felt like, gee, I wish I could’ve played some more. I always felt like I had my fill.

MA:Yeah. I was …

MA:Yup.

M:And, we were always playing, we always played on the beach.

MA:And, I think Dad – Dad liked the fried clams – he liked to get the fried clams. I can remember him driving around trying to look for a parking space and not being too happy about that part of it.

M:You two used to chase your little brother around with seaweed all the time cause I hated seaweed when I was a little kid.

MA:We wouldn’t do that.

M:And, then we’d go out and get that, that, you know, that stuff that they – the yellow …

MA:Oh, yeah.

M:… that stuff that’s like about four or five inches wide…

M:Yeah.

M:… and they’d be out there collecting and throwing all over.

MA:Um, huh.

M:I was the younger brother.

M:I remember – I do remember we’d bring all our food. I don’t remember ever buying anything there ever. Maybe …

M:Not, not early on.

MA:No, we might’ve bought ice cream, but that would be it.

M:But, as adults and young adults, Mom loved the lobster sandwich you could get, there was a place where you’d get it and later on when she was getting it, she would like to go there just to take a look and get the sandwich. But, as kids, no, when we were real small, no …

MA:We didn’t have money.

M:… no.

MA:We didn’t have money to buy with.

M:Maybe get a hotdog.

M:I think we got hotdogs. Cause I know we got hotdogs because just like, uh, Howard Johnson, they used to toast the rolls.

MA:Oh, that is …

M:I remember toasted rolls and …

M:Well, they didn’t like you Matt.

MA:Yeah.

M:I don’t know, I mean – he had that brown vest his mother brought to the pool.

MA:I mean, that was a whole other thing, going to the pool (Underwood Public Swimming Pool in Belmont).

M:We used to play games on the beach, too. The sand was so flat.

MA:Right. That’s what I remember, is flat and gray. It wasn’t a pretty beach. It wasn’t.

M:Well, there was texture, but it wasn’t too, too rocky, it was – it wasn’t impossible to …

MA:I remember Dad teaching us how to look for the clams. I remember that part.

M:And, we’d start out in the morning, as a little water comes up, there’s a clam under there somewhere.

MA:Yup. And, we dug them up. Dad actually did that sometimes.

M:You go – you dug them up at …

M:He’d ask me where they are.

M:You dug them up at low tide.

MA:Low tide. And, that’s we liked low tide sometimes because of that activity.

M:They were down there quit a bit, they’d be down a foot.

MA:Yeah, they were, yeah.

M:Six or eight inches anyway.

M:And, those were expensive then, pretty nice.

MA:So, that …

M:Do you remember they, they had a arcade there, but not as big as Nantasker Beach, and everything was extremely expensive.

M:They had an arcade with a merry-go-round.

MA:Um, huh. Yeah, I remember going on that.

M:Yeah, sometimes I get 10 or 25 cents, but you know, that’d be like [snap] twelve seconds or something.

MA:Um, huh.

M:I always thought, gee, isn’t worth it.

M:Well, the, the ride that was rough for you was the dodging cars, but I think …

MA:Oh …

M:… at least Jimmie and I – the “dodge-em” cars was number one. They had boats and you could bump into that a little bit.

MA: You guys were ruthless.

M:Dodge-em cars were …

MA:Ruthless.

M:I wanted to go on it and I wanted to go on it and I wanted to go on it and, uh, what happened is I got somebody in front of me and somebody …

M:Behind you, from behind and you …

MA:Did you get whiplash?

M:No, kind of over his eye, he had about nine stitches.

M:I had four stitches over my right eye, but the people were concerned that I had lost my eye or something had happened, but …

MA:Oh.

M:… I went right ahead and anyway.

MA:One of the most traumatic experiences of my life was when you (Matt McGuire) got your finger caught in the door at Middletons.

M:Yeah.

MA:Oh.

M:Johnny Middleton.

MA:Man.

M:Peter.

M:Oh, Peter Middleton.

MA:We hated the Middletons after that.

M:Well, the mom wasn’t very apologetic for it, uh …

MA:She slammed the door on his hand.

M:Yeah, Peter Middleton was an ass.

M:He was an ass.

MA:Yeah.

M:And, uh, he could be an ass.

M:I thought …

MA:You know, Mom really thought you were not going to have that – the top of your finger.

M:He might’ve the tip.

MA:I, you know, I was just – my poor little brother, losing the tip of his finger.

M:You were bad when you had appendicitis, cause you had …

M:The appendicitis was bad.

M:You had serious appendicitis, you burst or whatever …

M:How old were you?

M:I was five. And, I remember, you know, Mom says how are you feeling Matty, and I said I feel terrible, call a doctor and she says, you know, you feel bad? I said the pain is killing me, call a doctor, just call a doctor, will you. The pain’s killing me and Mom was like, Dr. Bennett will tell me what to do, but I was like – I couldn’t even stand up, I mean it was …

MA:Yeah. That’s pretty smart for a five-year-old.

M:He probably had talk pretty loud to be heard.

M:Well, yeah, I wonder if …

M:I remember you being in the back bedroom and that was really severe, maybe recuperating you were in there for a while, but that was a serious, it was serious, it wasn’t – appendicitis, you could go in and have the operation and take it out and normally, you didn’t have the situation that you did, so it was, it wasn’t routine, it was a serious operation, but yours was more serious.

M:And, I have a big scar, but I remember going to the hospital and, uh, and being in room with a – like a baby, an infant, I don’t know why I was there, but that’s how they grouped them. You know, it’s not being – just being bored and then finally I think Mary Sullivan came and Mom came, they gave me some books and coloring books and I was so very happy to see them – it was about three or four days and then I was just laying awake and then, uh, could move me to a room where other kids were and I had a playroom toward the end of the time I was there.

MA:Well, that’s pretty traumatic. Do you – one of the things I remember is when Mom – I don’t know if you guys remember this at all – was when Mom had her teeth out.

M:Oh, yeah.

MA:That was horrible for her.

M:Absolutely.

MA:Horrible.

M:She sat on the bed and was weeping, she was just as depressed as hell. No more – I had never seen her more depressed.

MA:Yeah, she wore a cloth over her face and …

M:And, why she had her teeth out …

MA:They probably were rotten, I mean.

M:Well, what I heard later is that was the thing you did.

MA:Yeah.

M:It’s sort of like, if you can’t afford to keep your teeth healthy so, therefore, you get a new set of teeth when you’re – I mean, dentures were not seen as …

MA:It was almost like a good thing.

M:There was a problem – they didn’t have the fluoridation – but, there was a problem in that area because I’ve gone to dentists and, where I am in the Virginia-Washington area and they know if you say you were there, they knew that in time – when we were kids there was a real problem with, uh …

M:The water.

M:… yeah, with water, and people having difficulties with their teeth. I had a lot of fillings, uh, and ever since I left there, I don’t have anything new.

MA:I had fluoride when I was a kid, I mean, whatever dentist we went to, was he in Cambridge or Sommerville or someplace?

MA:Cause you were young, I just remember going to this guy, I mean I can, I can remember the smell of the – the sound of the drill, just, oh …

M:Well, dentistry is still a problem for a lot of people because with medical coverage, it’s the one coverage that isn’t there and when you have children, it’s an expensive proposition.

MA:Well, and a lot of people that are poor, they – kids drink soda or, you know, stuff that’s not good for our teeth.

M:Kool Aid, ice cream. I hated Zarex.

MA:Zarex.

M:I hated powdered milk.

MA:Ohhh!!

M:I hate all of the above.

MA:That was the worst.

M:Powdered milk.

MA:Dad and his powdered milk, oh my God!

M:Putting it in the glass bottles and disguising it as regular milk. That’s not our milk.

MA:Fish cakes, I hated the stupid fish cakes. And, you know, you guys might’ve like it, but …

M:Lamb burgers …

MA:Oh, God.

M:I hated lamb burgers.

MA:Oh, God, I used to put …

M:The taste of lamb burgers, ugh.

MA:… some kind of relish on top of it so I couldn’t taste it, oh, I hated those, I hated them. And, also …

M:How difficult was it to be in the position where that’s all you could really afford?

MA:Yeah.

M:You appreciate those things now.

M:Well – because we were on a monthly paycheck, so I talked to Candy, saying at the beginning of the month, at the end of the month, you started budgeting what you get because you got paid just – I get paid just once now versus every, every two weeks. And, I said it brings back memories of a child because when, when Dad got paid it was at the beginning of the month, we all went to the store, we all picked out what we wanted and you could pick out a treat or just whatever you wanted and then at the end of the month, we’re looking at powdered milk.

MA:And, then, he would go to the market and he’d bring home all the stuff from, uh the market.

M:Yeah, at the end of the month the money was gone and you had to wait ‘til his next check.

MA:We had strawberry shortcake every payday.

M:That’s right.

M:He used to go to the Boston outdoor market get all this fruit.

MA:He loved buying that fruit. Oh, did he love buying the fruit.

M:And, the fruit that would be good for us.

MA:Jimmie, that’s where get it. He, no, I mean Dad loved buying fruit, he really did and he – when he could, he bought a lot.

M:Yup.

MA:So, I bet that’s a part of, you know …

M:I just remember one time he had like, you know, must’ve been a ten pound steak. It was the biggest hunk of meat and it wasn’t a roast beef, he picked up at the market.

MA:Oh, I remember – I do remember roast beef dinners.

M:That was a great place to go.

M:Um, huh, it was. North end and …

MA:Yeah.

M:Just get off the causeway and you’re there.

M:Where we used to get our pastries, right?

MA:You should go to Mike’s Pastries.

M:The one across the street.

MA:You should go to the north end, but, you know, you guys, you want …

 

[Transcription of Tape 4 copied from CD 4 ended here.]

 

[Transcribed by Karen M. Rayman, October 2012]

 

[Revised by Karen M. Rayman, December 2012]