Siblings' Family Stories
Part III
This is the four siblings (Marianne O’Malley, Jim, Ed, and Matt McGuire) talking in July 2012.
(This is transcribed from Tape 3 which was copied from CD 3]
[M: indicates male speakers and MA: indicates Marianne as the female speaker.]
M:So, you go to the neighborhood parties?
MA:I do, with Mary Sullivan, Connie Sullivan, and, um, Ellen Sullivan, and the McMackins and, who else was in that neighborhood? Well, I think Mary and Fred used to come, Bill and Kathleen used to come to the parties. It was mostly I think their church friends.
M:Do you know where that comes from?
MA:No, where?
M:I gave it to Mom. So, it can’t be in a better place.
MA:Is it – that’s what I – the same to you, I love going to your house, is that I see things, you know, um …
M:So, I learned – I met Robert Reagan, you know, the woman who was the head of the library and she invited me to a reunion Belmont High School people who graduated the same year.
MA:Really?
M:And, I graduated from BC High, you’re from that one, that’s okay. You can come. And, Robert Reagan came that evening.
MA:Really?
M:Right.
MA:I can remember going up to their house, playing in their yard. We didn’t do it too very often though. And, I can’t remember why, but I got the feeling …
M:Well, Eddie thought – on the conversation today was is that there were two kinds of Irish sort of families that sort of, you know, stayed within themselves.
MA:Right.
M:And, people who – Irish people who talk to everybody and he said that he sort of sensed that Dad’s family was one where you didn’t talk to other people, I mean, you were pleasant and cordial to them, but they really were not part of your world.
MA:But, we didn’t feel like we – let’s go up to the Reagan’s house and play.
M:Well, like Garrett when we were kids, Garrett was more friendly, Robert was a little bit more reserved. Ken was the older brother and sort of in charge and we used to play football in their side yard.
MA:I do remember playing in the side yard, I do remember that.
M:On the side of the house, you know, they had the end. We’d play with them when we saw them, but I don’t think mother had – you know, there were what 10 or 11 of them, so I’m sure they didn’t want more people in their 10 or 11 kids.
MA:They have that many?
M:They had nine and they had two I think that died.
MA:Wow.
M:And – but, Robert this – was there, uh, for the evening and what I remember when he was there is he said that he – that Mrs. Oliverie and his mother used to sort of have a prayer gathering once a week, so I, I didn’t think that the Oliveries and the Reagans knew one another at all. And, I think it’s really part of this sort of insular kind of life that people had. But, Robert was talking about the fact that he knew Mrs. Oliverie really well and she and, um, his mother would sort of get together and pray.
MA:Well, that’s interesting because I don’t think Mrs. Oliverie knew – I mean, I don’t even remember seeing her.
M:Right. I remember seeing Mrs. Reagan. Well, I remember seeing Mrs. Reagan going in the house and I remember what she did, she made soap in the basement and I remember the smell. Well, you know, I think that – Eddie was talking today about shoveling snow and he was talking about the idea of when he shovels snow and, and he saved up his money, and I’m not sure that you know the story that, you know, he bought tickets to the Celtics game and he and Dad went together and they sat, um, on the opposite team – behind the opposite team’s …
MA:Bench?
M:Yeah, on the floor, and, uh, they watched Bill Russell, hold this guy, who usually got 30 points in a game, to six or nine.
MA:Yeah.
M:And, it was just a great game. And, we were talking about Johnny Most, radio broadcaster, and also listening to the Friday night fights, really in your room, that’s what I remember.
MA:Yeah. Yeah.
M:Because I think you had a radio in your room.
MA:I used to listen in my room to whatever was going on in the house. I would stand in the corner and listen to Mom and Dad talk, you know, or whatever and …
M:I remember people would talk, they’d talk about watching Cassius Clay and Sonny Liston on TV in their first fight. It wasn’t on TV, it was on closed circuit. I had to listen to it on the radio. It wasn’t on TV, you had to go buy – get it from a movie theater. No TV coverage, so – in the neighborhood – so that year, you know, things were sort of going on. And, uh, we had this college yearbook talked about growing up in, in, uh, Cuba, and sort of coming to the United States and, like, nobody really sort of understood the world that he came from, but it was a very sort of unique cast of characters and he was saying that – and, too, there’s a unique cast of characters in our neighborhood. He sort of followed the U.S. way of living, that’s what they were interested in – movies, comics and all of that and what, what they did – what we did – we did more than he did, they only thing he did that was a little bit different than we did was probably drive on the waves and surf with his dad when they went by the beach, but other than that, jumping out of trees, jumping off roofs and thirty boys in the neighborhood having all these bean blowing, acorn, chestnut fights, yard-to-yard up and down the streets, playing football with everybody, all kinds of stuff, we all did that.
MA:I got hit by a like a line drive in the – who lived in – is it [name] – the [name] yard?
M:Um, huh.
MA:From a baseball. I remember baseball that.
M:What happened?
MA:Somebody just hit me with a ball.
M:For a reason?
MA:No, I mean, we were playing ball.
M:On the street?
MA:In their yard. In their yard.
M:They were …
MA:And, then, there was Patsy Morrow and Dickey Morrow.
M:What do you remember about them? And, there was another Morrow, too.
MA:I remember them …
M:There was Bobby Morrow and there was Eddie Morrow who had polio. Bobby didn’t. Bobby and Dickie. Dickie was your age, Bobby was my age. Patsy was your age.
MA:Yeah. Patsy Morrow sort of like – sort of was sorta like my friend, but …
M:She was a little rough.
MA:But, I don’t think Mom was encouraging that particular – and I don’t think I …
M:She was …
MA:I – the people I liked for girlfriends were Ellen Connors, the house behind us …
M:Dr. Connors.
M:Yeah.
MA:Their daughter.
M:The oldest.
MA:Daughter – Ellen, I think it was.
M:Ellen was the oldest.
MA: I was in her house many times, uh, and then who’s the one that lived at Payson Park? Across from Payson Park? Uh, Irish – another family.
M:O’Connor. Maureen.
MA:Maureen O’Connor. So, those were like the girls – little girls that were like my same age.
M:Maureen became very sophisticated and …
M:Yeah, she became a model.
MA:Did she really? Yeah.
M:Yeah.
MA:Well, I mean, I didn’t really fit in with either one of those two girls. I was – as far as …
M:Maureen O’Connor lived there and the Rooneys lived across the street.
MA:Girlfriends – I didn’t really have that many girlfriends.
M:The O’Connors lived – Payson Park, yeah, they lived across the street for a while.
MA:But, I remember going to their house also. Um, who – Beverly Oliverie?
M:Weaver.
MA:Weaver.
M:Weaver. Andy Oliverie.
MA:Andy Oliverie.
MThe parents were very nice, the mother and stuff. The father was really friendly, always brought food over for Lassie, scraps and bones, put them over the fence. I thought it was nice.
MA:Yeah. I just remember her – did her hair up in rags. She had curly hair, so …
M:And, the Mom was, the Mom was in between and the problem with the Mom was we were Catholics and they weren’t. Although, we all played together because Beverly and her friends – we all played out in the street all the time.
MA:Yeah, and, um, now who – McGraths were across the street, right? And, then, um …
M:I remember McGraths.
MA:They, they didn’t have kids.
M:Okay.
MA:Um, they – and then there was a lady across – next to [name], there was a lady across the street.
M:Nelsons lived there.
MA:Nelsons and all I remember about that house is that I think a woman had a – that lived there had a baby and then she …
M:Nelsons had two older boys.
MA:… she had postpartum depression and went away to the hospital and …
M:When you were a kid?
MA:Yeah, I mean, I just remember that story. She never – never saw her outside or anything.
M:So, the guy, Jim and Doll?
MA:Burke?
M:Burke. No.
MA:Oh, the ones …
M:Jim and, she was called Doll, too, and they had the sister …
MA:Daley. Jim Daley.
M:Daley.
M:Jim Daley.
MA:He was handsome, she was tall, wore a lotta makeup.
M:Yeah, and her sister …
MA:Her sister …
M:Her sister wore even more makeup.
MA:Yeah, more makeup.
M:Yeah, she had black hair, her sister had, uh …
MA:And, she would …
M:She had blonde hair, her sister had black hair.
MA:She worked in lingerie, uh, place.
M:Who did?
MA:The sister.
M:Jim was really a nice guy.
MA:But, so, they were in – they were part of the family – that was part of the group that Mom and Dad had to the house socially and they’d – McMackins …
M:And, you’re in …
M:And, you’re in your room and what did you hear?
MA:What did I hear? I don’t know. I just know I was nosy. I wanted to know what was going on.
MA:Well, I think Mom knew what I was doing, there were times when she would say things and she told me this later on, you know, she and Dad would be talking because they knew I was listening.
M:What were they talking about?
MA:I don’t know, they were probably just trying to get me to do something or understand something that was going on. It was funny.
M:Your room was the sick room also for people when they were sick and they needed to be sort of isolated?
MA:Um, I remember being sick there with the measles because …
M:I had the measles – I thought we were all in – I thought – we all got the measles.
MA:I had it first.
M:But, I think we all were in – I thought we were all in Mom’s room when we get the measles and we had to keep the lights down.
MA:You were, you were. I was sick in, in my room and then you guys got it and I think it was Easter-time.
M:It was Easter.
M:Had to keep the shades – light was a problem.
MA:Yeah, I know, I think we made you baskets or some – because I then got well, um, but, yeah, that was kind of scary.
M:I was afraid about getting the mumps and then to get the mumps.
MA:Right. I don’t – did somebody have the mumps?
M:No, nobody, it’s contagious.
MA:I know I remember being afraid about it.
M:Yeah, and that could have, you know, side effects with the mumps. Measles …
MA:Did you guys all have the chicken pox?
M:Yeah, I got a chicken pox mark on my face. And, shingles, I’ve already had shingles.
MA:Oh. Yeah, I know, but you can get it again, I guess.
M:So, going through Charlestown and having – hearing the name Neely reminded me that there was a Father Neely.
MA:There was a Father Neely.
M:Father Baylor.
MA:Father Baylor. They were the first two …
M:Before Father O’Brien.
MA:And, then Father O’Brien and Father Griffin. And, then, there was Monsignor McNamara in there somewhere. Course, it was Father Maguire, Father Neely, and Father Baylor.
M:Monsignor Sheridan was the …
MA:And, Monsignor Sheridan.
M:There was one before then.
MA:And, I worked for the rectory at that time.
M:Yeah. Right, right.
M:There was a priest before Monsignor Sheridan and I think it was a Father, I don’t think it was Monsignor. I can’t remember the name.
MA:McNamara?
M:No. McNamara was after. That was, that was …
M:Yeah, Neely and Baylor and then, uh …
M:Father Neely went at Saint Joseph’s, right?
M:Right.
M:There was another one that went to Saint Joseph’s after being after being __________.
M:Well, there was Father Boyle, but he was always there. Father Boyle, he was the head of Catholic Youth Organization (CY)), nice guy.
M:I remember being scared when Mom and Dad went out when they I was really young and, uh, the lights either from the church or something else that was casting shadows. So, it would be really sort of spooky.
M:Yeah.
M:Ellen Sullivan worked for a lawyer.
M:Yeah, as the …
M:That was really important.
M:McMackin’s father owned a bottling company.
M:It was the “statue” of limitations that drove her crazy. Statute of limitations?
M:Which one?
M:She heard the statue of limitations.
M:Okay.
M:So, everybody would say … it drove her crazy. Because people would say statute instead of statute versus for the …
M:So, we were also talking about people like Libby Feeley. Do you remember Libby Feeley?
MA:Right, just let me think of Ellen Sullivan, I thought of something now, I forgot it again. All right. What was it about? Oh, the Silver – the Silver Fox, he was called, as Dale was called. The Silver Fox and that, um, Paul Newman movie about the biggest, uh, settlement ever was about him.
M:On the opposite side or …
MA:“The Verdict” I think was the name of it.
M:Cause the Paul Newman character in the “The Verdict” was the deadbeat lawyer with a – which, I really liked the movie, but he had the two hundred dollar haircut as a lawyer that was not surviving.
MA:Maybe that’s, yeah, maybe it was the other – yeah, I don’t know.
M:He might’ve been – he might’ve been representing …
F:But, he got one of the biggest settlements, I guess …
M:He might’ve been representing insurance, but the, the, the Paul Newman character was a down-and-out lawyer that had a drinking problem and, uh, but he was dressed too nicely and coifed too nicely for a guy that was down-and-out.
MA:So, Libby Feeley was – I know she was a friend of Dad’s and Aunt Kathleen’s.
M:That’s right.
M:Kathleen’s mainly.
M:I was thinking about …
MA:There’s another name, too. Around Libby Feeley?
M:She had her friend who was the other stenography, too, that was – used to come by, I know.
MA:Yeah.
M:Can’t think of her name.
MA:Okay.
M:When we were talking about upstairs and downstairs and the differences. That had – and we were talking about how welcoming it felt going up there, right? I always thought there was – you could go to the bathroom upstairs, but none of the boys could go to the bathroom upstairs.
MA:You weren’t allowed …
M:Not to use that bathroom. You could, but it was very rare – but, they didn’t want you to use that one.
M:And …
MA:I can understand that, having had boys.
M:Right. Well, they had the covers and stuff over there and they just, you know …
MA:I used to go up to have a bath.
M:Right.
MA:With Sweetheart soap.
M:Right. That never happened to us.
MA:Oh, well, I can understand that. In a way, I guess, although, it’s funny, you know, I do not ever – maybe you do – but, I don’t ever remember my grandmother playing with me.
M:Well, that’s really different than Eddie and, and Matt. Which is really sort of interesting – Eddie – Matt and Eddie both remember sitting reading to them hours on end on occasions and sort of having nickels, dimes and quarters that they would – she would give them …
MA:Really?
M:… on special occasions. Kathleen doing the same.
M:Nana was – she was reading one time, both into the story, she left the kitchen sink on, there was a flood because the whole floor flooded and she was reading (“Ed McGuire”) me a story at the time.
MA:Wow.
M:We were both in the kitchen, she says …
MA:She was famous for that.
M:Yeah.
MA:Flooding out the – I mean – that happened a couple of times for Mom and Dad.
M:Yeah.
MA:Do you remember …
M:The water was coming down the stairs.
MA:… playing with Grandma?
M:No, what I remember about Grandma was, um, that she would give you nickels and times and quarters every now and then.
MA:Yeah, I remember that, now that you tell me.
M:What I remember – and this – said this – I remember going upstairs and in the kitchen, you know, I thought that the best toast in the world was made in their kitchen.
MA:She didn’t …
M:In the kitchen with a toaster that came this way …
MA:Yeah, yeah.
M:… and there were sort of points on the toast that the butter sort of …
MA:I do remember that.
M:And, the other thing I remember is that they would make this perfect soft boiled egg and they would cut it and then you’d scoop it out of the …
MA:They always – they had the egg …
M:The egg holder, yeah, set up in it.
MA:Yes, they had the egg holders and she used to always eat out of the – with shell still on it.
M:Right, right. And, the, the – there was always a cold bottle of water that tasted, somehow it tasted really spectacular. It was good.
M:It was cold, cause it was in a glass bottle.
MA:Glass, yeah, yeah.
M:A glass ridged bottle, it was about that wide and about that …
MA:Um, huh.
M:And, I remember, you know – what I remember mostly was getting ready for Uncle Matt and she’s scrubbing down the back stairs and, and, um …
MA:Kathleen or Grandma?
M:Uh, Grandma. And, I knew Kathleen did it, too, and I also – cause I tried to eventually thought about trying to build a room up there. I mean the idea of going into the attic was – I mean, I thought that their house was …
MA:Yeah, we weren’t allowed to go in that attic unless – it was almost like a special occasion.
M:It was cool cause they had this door you go in this way and then you could go all the way behind the wall on, on the far side. You could go all the way up until you were in the front of the house.
MA:I remember Matt and Eleanor at one point were supposed to live up there, weren’t they, I think that was the …
M:No, really.
M:No, no, no.
MA:No, that was the story that they – or maybe it was just Uncle Matt …
M:That might’ve been a rumor. There was rumors that maybe from time-to-time they – the house was going to be sold. They would have had to raise the roof, because that was not a, a …
MA:Well, I know.
M:… you could stand up in the middle portion, maybe, you couldn’t stand up on the sides cause they slanted.
M:To get up to is very difficult.
MA:Yeah, yeah, right, right. And, then there was that little closet off to the …
M:Left.
MA:That was like exploring.
M:Yeah, and that went to the right and all the way down the length of the house and it was a crawl space. You could crawl as a kid, might be this wide, you could go from that end of the house to the front door part, all the way around, it was kinda cool.
MA:I did that. I just remember there was some broken glass cause …
M:Yeah, there was a false wall in the room and there was a crawl space behind those spaces.
MA:Yeah, right and wasn’t – weren’t there drawers or something in that?
M:Yeah, drawers.
MA:I think, that’s why I think that at some point, I don’t know whether they would live there, but maybe when you came to visit that you …
M:Would’ve had to raise the roof. They would’ve had to raise the roof, you couldn’t …
M:Well, that’s true.
M:I could see how they would say that.
MA:Yeah, yeah.
M:Well, a couple times, they were thinking about selling the house. So, I know that probably was …
MA:Thank God that never happened.
M:Well, it scared the hell out of – scared the hell out of Mom.
MA:Many times. Oh, she …
M:At one …
MA:She always felt that was hanging over her head.
M:They were nervous. I’ve got – I …
M:Mike (Mike O’Malley, Marianne’s son) wants to say hello to you guys.
MA:Hello.
M:Hello, Mike.
M:What is this a group Mike hello?
M:Hi, Michael.M:Pass him around, say hello.
Mike:[on phone] Hello, how are you?
M:I’m, uh, I’m good. We went to Bunker Hill today to where my dad grew up and we, um, it’s 88 Elm Street and we knocked on the door and asked whether we could come in and had the chance to sort of, uh – the house is pretty much the same as when my dad lived there and we had a chance to go up the three levels in the house …
Mike:[on phone] Oh, you’re kidding me?
M:A hundred years old, it is the same brown color as (23) Lawndale Street where I grew up, it has been the same color. It has brown, uh, shingles and it has the same – which is difficult to take care of and stain, and it has the same, uh, deep-colored cream trim on it as Lawndale Street had, exactly the same.
Mike: [on phone] Well, it’s funny when I drove by Lawndale – I think I sent you guys all that picture – when I brought the gals, driving up from Boston to Nashua Thanksgiving. I took my kids by to see where there grandmother grew up and, um, and it’s very stark for me to see that house – not because I thought it looked different, but because, they had knocked down the rectory and the church behind it.
M:Oh, knocked down the rectory, there’s no parking lot, there’s a driveway on the left side of the house. They changed the colors in the entrance that, uh …
M:We can send you pictures.
M:It’s overgrown – it’s overgrown in front.
Mike:[on phone] Wow, well, please send me pictures. So, who was in the house, like was it a young couple?
M:No. An elderly couple by the name of Mcinnis.
M:It was a mother, I think and a son. The son – or maybe it was a couple.
M:That guy was 70.
Mike:[on phone] I’m shocked at what the house used to …
M:Absolutely.
M:Inside and out.
M:And, and, what they’ve done to the house is they’ve added an “L” at the back, but the house is really, um, you know, it’s, um, the front door, you come in and there’s a stairway in front of you.
M:And, the front door is on the side. As you go up the street, the house facing the street doesn’t have an entrance to it.
M:So, the entrance is on the side of the house.
Mike:[on phone] Oh, wow.
M:And, so you go in, there’s one room on one side, one room on the other side and, uh, the rooms on the left side all have fireplaces in them. So, you can imagine, you know, Dad coming home and, you know, um, and what – where they lived – and he used to – and the Mystic River is, two blocks away. And, um, we went to the – I went to the same, I think, tavern that – Warren – is that it?
M:Warren Tavern.
Mike:[on phone] Warren Tavern is great, is that right near there?
All:Yeah.
M:Yeah, it’s very close.
Mike:[on phone] Sure I know where the Warren Tavern is, wow.
M:It’s within a block or so.
M:So, I can imagine Dad going down there with his family and – we climbed up to the top of the Bunker Hill monument and we went down to the Navy Yards and it is gentrified now, but you, you – it was – it’s a really sort of an interesting event to sort of, sort of go back and be in the house that your father grew up in. It just, um …
Mike:[on phone] No, I agree. You know, it’s funny, I talked to my Dad sometimes about going out and seeing _____, so many of them know so well, but which I’ve never – I’ve never even seen – I’ve never even been in the town. ______________
M:Your Dad told me today that he used to go – up to the time he was eight years old – to visit in Clinton, spent a lot of time there and that his Grandfather was a really great gardener and he used to sit with his Grandfather – he can’t remember what he said, but he remembers feeling that he was in a just a good place with a good person who could do sort of really a variety of things with the earth and – I think that those are just – I mean, those are like _______ memories for me, I don’t know and sort of returning to your roots and really good people.
Mike:[on phone] Yeah, well, that’s what I think, you know, it’s been hard obviously for us to get back and it’s so important to get back east because time passes and in the summer time you’re able to slow down a little bit, but I think even you guys, you know, we haven’t been able to make it the last couple years – the reunion that you have back there for the younger kids they – you know how like a summer day stretches for kids in a way that it doesn’t for adults and, and I’ve seen like – we, we had a couple gatherings out here with people and the memories that it lodges in our kids are so, so, so, strong and they could have just met – they could’ve met somebody they’re playing with, but the day before or that morning and they can vividly remember it a year later – exactly what they did that day.
M:Well, we’re not as good as that. But, it’s sort of like, you know, perennial events, perennial lives – and so Charlestown’s different, but Lawndale Street was a culture and a group of people and Charlestown was and …
Mike:[on phone] Do your Dad ever and spend time in Charlestown?
M:Did my Dad?
Mike:[on phone] Yeah, after he had moved on to kind of …
M:No, I think my just spent time with his family, that was his love.
M:I don’t remember them ever taking us back, maybe once in driving by the street and saying the lived on Elm Street, but I don’t ever recall being taken to the house.
M:I don’t remember going back.
MA:I don’t remember have that memory.
Mike:[on phone] Well, you guys, if you really think about that, they, they – and, I’m the same way, but the level of nostalgia and – I don’t mean that in a pejorative kind of way …
M:Of course, you do.
Mike:[on phone] … memories – and it’s important to you in that house and what that house meant – certainly Lawndale Street would’ve meant to me – and yet for your Dad – and we don’t know, you know, when he was off would drive by himself if he went by and, you know, or didn’t – or you guys were doing it – but, it wasn’t that way for him. Isn’t that interesting?
M:I think, I think for that generation, coming out of the depression and working that – and probably being older at a younger age that there life was, was forced in a different direction and the probably didn’t have – they had memories, but they probably were used to a different style of living and a different formality that maybe the memories weren’t as enriched as they were for our generation coming through and, even now, the generation after us, probably a little bit more difficult because it’s less family-centered. But, they were family-centered in the middle of a huge economic struggle to get by and we were in the same family-centered setting, but not the same struggle that they went through. So, I think we didn’t have to be grown up as soon as they did.
Mike:[on phone] Right, right. And, I wish I was sitting there with you.
M:You are.
MA:Yeah. Sort of.
Mike:[on phone] We are putting our kids to bed because they’re going to their fourth day of camp. They’ve been having a great summer. I have been working, not around the clock, but, uh, a lot and looking forward to some time off sometime in late October.
M:Well, so that sounds right in time for your birthday, right?
Mike:[on phone] [laughter]
M:Yeah, there you go.
MA:Yeah, we’ll all come – we’ll all come visit you, Mike.
M:Yeah, that’s a scary idea.
Mike:It’s pretty awesome. And, it’s a great, uh, example for all of us.
M:Yeah, if you’re not too busy, and if it works out, we’re trying to get out to see the kids in the West Coast because it’s been two years for us and we’re trying to go …
Mike:Please call and please stay.
M:Yeah, we’d probably go up the second week of August for three weeks. If we get out there, I’ll try and catch up with you.
Mike:I think we’re going to be here and that’s actually a good time for us. In fact, actually, uh, Uncle Ed, we’re going to have a house in Oxnard on the beach.
M:Oh, great.
Mike:Uh, the last week of August.
M:Well, we might be, we’re trying to figure out times with Luke and we’re gonna – we might be out there – they’re talking about for my birthday anyway, so that’d be the end of August.
Mike:Keep us posted.
M:Okay, will do.
Mike:Enjoy the 70 degree weather because I know that doesn’t happen that often.
MA:Yeah.
M:Love to the family. You have a beautiful family and a sensational wife.
Mike:You guys are awesome. Talk to you later.
MA:Bye, oh.
M:Later.
M:Well, that was quite a conversation.
MA:That was funny, huh? Um, what was I thinking about when you were …
M:Well, actually, one of the things I was thinking, uh, to ask you about is that, you know, um, you talked to Mom in ways that none of us did and, uh, I remember Mom and – sort of these little differences between people – she and Eleanor McMackin sort of were good friends, but also good enemies in terms of …
M:A great friend. Different political philosophies.
MA:Yeah, politically, she was Republican and Mom, uh, I think, on an intellectual basis Ella McMackin was her equal.
M:Yeah.
MA:And, they liked jousting and, and Mom, Mom was proud of her intelligence, you know, I mean, she was proud that she got a scholarship to Emmanuel.
M:Did she have a scholarship? I didn’t know that.
MA:Yeah, I’m pretty sure.
M:Yeah, they were, they were remarkable because after Mary went to college, she went to Portia Law School also.
MA:Right.
M:So, at that time and in that era, that would’ve been unusual to have that type of education. And, I think she really did like Ella, they were really close friends and they liked the jesting – or jousting – and it was nice kind of jousting and it was – when they had that friendship going and Ella liked William Buckley a lot.
MA:Yeah, who was the – there was another woman, uh, I don’t remember her name, but she was also a friend of Ella McMackin. She was only in the group for a little while, um, kind ethereal, um, told me that I had a beautiful neck and that I should wear gray. Um, that’s why I remember her. Uh, I can’t think of her name – was like a – I was going to say …
M:A little bit, but there was Mom and Ella and Mary, um, way back …
M:Who was the person who lived underneath Sheila Ford [???] and …
M:Irene McCormick.
MA:Irene McCormick.
M:Yeah.
MA:Irene McCormick was …
M:She ran her own business.
MA:Ran her own business. I think she was a tough cookie.
M:She had to be.
MA:Huh?
M:She had to be.
MA:Right.
M:Cecil (her husband) was handicapped bedridden.
MA:What did he have, multiple sclerosis?
M:Multiple sclerosis.
M:I thought Cecil was the brother.
M:Oh, maybe Cecil …
MA:Yeah.
M:Well, maybe that was …
M:He was a truck driver.
MA:Dan or something?
M:Jim.
M:Well, Jim was the son.
MA: Irene was …
M:I think the father, too.
M:The father, too, I could be …
MA:Yeah, it wasn’t Cecil.
M:No, Cecil was a brother, that’s correct.
M:And, what, what I remember Mom saying, he swore trooper was, was a really a good man.
MA:Yeah, I mean, everybody liked him. I mean they came and visited him all the time, which was – I mean it was good for Irene.
M:He was the person who said give me a firm handshake. That’s what I remember him saying.
MA:Oh, I remember seeing him once or twice.
M:He had all the riddles before – that was all machinery, mechanical …
MA:I remember admiring Irene McCormick’s hair. She had the greatest hair.
M:Short.
MA:Short and strong and curly and stayed pretty much brown much longer than – I’ll never forget at one point when I asked Mom – I came home, I think at one point and said, you know, why don’t you color your hair?
M:They were friends and …
M:What did Mom say?
MA:You know, I don’t remember exactly what she said, but I think she was kind of okay with … I mean, she was prematurely gray at like 26, 26 years old. I mean, she was gray very early.
M:Yeah, she looked great gray.
M:She colored though. Irene McCormick?
MA:We’re talking about Mom now.
M:Oh, Mom, yeah.
M:So, there was Ellen Sullivan, Ellen Sullivan was – and the lady, Dorothy Daley’s sister, were sort of like maiden aunts that sort of lived in the house on Lawndale Street.
MA:Yeah, they, they …
M:They helped support that house.
MA:Exactly. Yeah.
M:And, and, Ellen wouldn’t come to the parties at the house.
M:No, Dorothy might and her sister, Lillian.
M:Lillian was the, was the wife.
M:Was the mother. Lillian was Jim Daly’s wife. Dorothy might’ve been a sister.
MA:And, she had – they had two kids a boy and a girl.
M:Yeah.
MA:But, Ellen, Ellen would come to the parties, she liked to go to the parties.
M:Yeah, I remember Ellen very fondly. But, we were talking earlier …
M:Ellen used to play – Sullivan?
M:Yeah.
M:[She] played cribbage with us all the time.
MA:She was smart – she loved to kid you boys.
M:And, we liked to kid her.
MA:Yes, exactly.
M:She was the one that liked to kiss us and I was always like no kisses.
MA:Um, huh.
M:She always came in and tried to grab …
MA:She was big and tall and …
M:She was tall, she was probably – she was as tall as Dad or probably – she was taller than Mary.
MA:Yeah, that’s what I remember about her.
M:But, she was Connie’s sister, right?
M:Right.
MA:And, then there was Mr. and Mrs. Burke – Doll.
M:Doll and Peggy. I thought she was your best friend.
MA:She was pretty much, you know, she was in my wedding.
M:She was in all the pictures.
MA:Um, you know, as a matter of fact, I just got a birthday card from her, um, the other day, um, I think I told you she had breast cancer. I went and – went to the doctor with her …
M:Yeah.
MA:… well, her daughter called me …
M:Doesn’t surprise me.
MA:and, um, we connected and I said, well, you don’t want to go by yourself, and, um, her daughter couldn’t go all the time, so I went to several of them with her. And, it was really kind of interesting because we hadn’t – her husband, George, which I found out later – I had her up here, you know, you know how sometimes you have – as a couple you have somebody that you knew, but – we just did not hit it off as a couple, you know?
M:Um, huh.
MA:And, they lived in Charlestown, which is, you know, it’s only 20 minutes away. So, um, turned out he was an alcoholic and, uh, he died about six years ago from alcoholism. And, um, her brother, Billy …
M:Billy. He was a gambler and an alcoholic way back.
MA:… because of the alcoholism, I think.
M:He was a gambler when he was – I, I went to the dog track and would see Billy there. We asked him all about betting, Charlie and I, because Billy was betting the dogs and horses all the time, he had some pretty good ideas on bets, so that‘s when we were 18 – he was – cause we’d have fake IDs to get in there.
MA:So, she, she raised four kids and, uh, she – it was kind of hard with him, but now that he’s died, you know, actually I think she’s a little ..
M:She does great.
MA:… little happier. Um, but, her dad and mother lived quite …
M:In Charlestown, yeah.
MA:… yeah, I will never forget driving down to the Cape, _____, because he, you know, he knew every cop in town and he would go down, you know, most people would take two hours, he’d be down in about an hour and 15 minutes. I mean, he just – bat outta hell.
M:He was ways and means committee (Massachusetts Legislature), he had lotta power connections.
MA:Oh, yeah.
M:For everything that happened in Massachusetts.
MA:Yeah, exactly. So, but a nice, nice man.
M:Sweetheart.
MA:And, Doll Burke …
M:Was a doll.
MA:Was a doll. And, she was a doll, I mean, she was taken care of as if she was a doll. She didn’t do …
M:She acted like a doll. She was, she was probably like the old movies, maybe, can’t think of the actress that – June Allyson – she was sort of like a June Allyson.
MA:Yeah, yeah, she was very simple, very … and they had a little cadre of aunts and cousins and stuff that lived in Belmont, um, but, yeah, I used to go over to Peggy’s house and then I – well, that’s when – when I had friends at that time, they were all …
M:That was a big house.
MA:Huh? Peggy’s house, Joan for Donnie, and Carol Rosenthal, um, I went to her bas mitzpha, um, for Donnie. Beverly Weaver, I think, was in that group.
M:Beverly Weaver …
MA:Oh, and then – not Falon, but there was another girl that lived right next door to Peggy that we had the – oh, and Lee [name], Lee [name]. We had the BKKO, which was the Belmont Krazy Kannibal Association. That was a group of girls of around thirteen.
M:That’s great.
MA:Yeah, we, uh, we used to meet on Friday nights and everything, you know, what we were gonna eat and we’d – I think we played cards and told stories and jokes and our biggest thrill was we would call people whose name was Burke, we’d call them up and say, hello, is Trigger there because I guess at that time there was some criminal by the name of Trigger Burke. [note from transcriptionist – yup, Brinks Robbery bad guy.]
M:You had those secret phone calls where you’d call people? That was …
MA:I can’t even believe I did that, but it was, it was – well, we had a lotta fun – that group, that was, that was a good group of girls and it really got me to, uh, notice – know that people outside of my immediate Irish Catholic – well, a lot of them are Irish Catholic – but …
M:It was like mixing – we mixed friends …
MA:And, then, you guys had Eddie Kennedy.
M:Um, huh.
MA:And, then Mary Ellen Waldron and her family. Um, and, were – the Reagans were in there.
M:We had a group on the street with Tony and Beverly and the other kids on the street.
MA:Yeah.
M:And, Bobby Wilson would come up in that group and Sue had a friend and we’d play, you know, a lot of games in the street. Kick the can – just ones where 10 or 15 people, then we used to play basketball next door, but there was, there was a period of time when it was boys and girls.
MA:Yeah, oh, yeah.
M:All kinds of games in the street. And, we always outside the house, we were never in it.
MA:Well, then, we used to go up to Chenery Field, cause we played tennis, right?
M:At Chenery we …
MA:There were Waldrons and the, and the Kennedys …
M:Sheila Ford.
MA:That’s right, I was trying to think who else was there.
M:Upstairs – Mary McCormick.
MA:That’s right, yeah. Had some great – I, I remember – I think it was a New Year’s Eve party that we had. I can remember Sheila Ford coming to the door – that, that girl always looked like she came from Paris or someplace exotic.
M:Exotic. She had that …
MA:She had that look, didn’t she?
M:Yes.
M:Jen ne se qua.
MA:Yeah, yeah, as a matter of fact, Jim, uh, our friend Harry Perkheiser, his wife that died, had that same quality. You know, how some women can just put together like a scarf and a piece of jewelry and they just – they look like, what’s the name, uh, Keaton?
M:Diane Keaton.
MA:Diane Keaton. They just have that whatever …
M:Well, she, she was very attractive and she had her own look. It was different than anybody else.
MA:Yeah, a pretty girl.
M:So, it wasn’t ethnicity or some thing, it was just her own ______ or whatever.
M:Her dad was an alcoholic.
MA:Her dad was an alcoholic?
M:I met the mom, I don’t remember meeting her dad and I think Cecil …
MA:And, the Gilliams – how did we get connected to the Gilliams?
M:Lady of Mercy.
MA:Were they Catholic?
M:Yeah, they were.
M:They were Catholics and Atheists.
MA:They were Catholic with their own way of doing things, I think.
M:You dated Sue for a while. You went out with Robert for a while.
MA:Oh, I went out with him for a long time.
M:Bob was the artist.
MA:I thought I was going to marry him.
M:The older brother was a mathematician.
MA:Yeah.
M:And, he was, he was …
M:Victor.
MA:Victor.
M:He, he didn’t join in.
MA:He was a mystery.
M:Well, he was that, but he didn’t join, but Bob was pretty funny.
MA:Bob was the biggest flirt on two legs.
M:Well, he was quite an Irish man and I think he was collecting posers for – he was a sidewalk artist.
M:He’s dead?
MA:No, I think he’s still alive.
M:Yeah, but he was a sidewalk artist in Boston, was doing all those track drawings, is he still going there?
MA:Well, yeah, I think he’s still there. Yeah, I think, yeah.
M:Yeah, but he – to me, he was the Snoopy with the southwest who would throw – that was his personality.
MA:They were exotic, too.
M:Well, Matt was saying he didn’t care too much for the Gilliams. He thought they all thought they were a little uppity or too bright or brighter than the rest of the world, but I, I got the …
M:They were pretty bright.
MA:They were bright.
M:They were all bright.
MA:They were bright, there’s no doubt about that.
M:Do you remember the party where they taught the Labrador Retriever to put food on his head and not eat it and then flip it up and catch it and Bob got a lobster for his birthday and we all took a bet on whether the lobster lived that we put it in the pot and he wound up going in the pot.
MA:Oh, jeez.
M: That was …
M:[inaudible]
MA:Oh, really? I remember just being in their basement.
M:Yeah, the parties in the basement.
MA:Yeah, I remember that.
M:And, we were in the kitchen with the lobster.
MA:I remember Dick Gilliam throwing me over for Mary Ellen Waldron. That was …
M:He did?
MA:Yeah. Killed me. Killed me. Because then I had – I was still in the same group of friends and you have to go back and like …
M:Seems to me like someone went with the youngest …
M:Were they helpful?
MA:Huh?
M:Were they helpful when you …
MA:My friends? No. Of course, not. I, I mean I wouldn’t of let anybody know that it bothered me.
M:Well, it was with that group …
MA:Must’ve shown on my face.
M:… that group of people and like with Bob, that we all, we all went Harvard Square, we put red dots on our foreheads. People were asking about it and we collected money and then we went down to the pizza place and we buy pizza and stuff to eat. But, we were in Harvard Square just collecting money to go buy the stuff. And, we used to do that every once in a while. Like the things we did with Charley (Babin), you and I, when we go into Boston.
MA:I should’ve hung out with you guys more because …
M:You and I would do – we’d take turns being like, uh, crazy and one would be supervising the other one and there’d be something wrong – Jimmie and I would do that, that was our routine and then we’d like to do Candid Camera. So, we would put like a silver dollar in a drinking fountain and everybody look at it, but wouldn’t pick it up, just to see what people would do. We’d carry Charlie through all the stores and, uh, [end of tape 3 side A]___________________. Let’s drive in, Eddie, take a left turn and we’d be in the furthermost right lane and there’d be four others and we’d say just as we come up to it – left turn …
MA:I loved going into Boston. I, you know, I thought that was the biggest adventure …
M:______ when you were the princess.
MA:Oh, yeah, I loved it. That was a very unusual …
M:Piersols, is that the name?
MA:That sounds right, Jim. It sounds right, something like that. They lived across the street from the Chenery School.
M:Yeah.
MA:Piers … Bob …
M:Piersol? Anyway, so, so what part of Boston did you like the best? Just going in?
MA:I think going in.
M:It was going to the movie theater sometimes, that was really sort of cool to go to that theater and …
MA:Yeah. You know, Mom and I – that was special time for Mom and I. Mom and I liked to go shopping.
M:Well, tell me about that.
MA:And, um, we would get ready to go and we would go – we would stop in a church, we would say a Hail Mary or whatever and – that we would have a successful, uh …
M:Trip?
MA:… shopping adventure. And, then we’d wait for the streetcar and take the – you know, the streetcar ride, now that I think about it, that whole thing is a …
M:A ritual.
MA:… yeah, so then and we’d get to Harvard Square and then you’d have to get the right thing and then you’re gonna get off at Park Street or you’re gonna get off at Washington Street. We always get off at Washington Street stop (on the Boston subway). We usually went out to lunch.
M:Where’d you go?
MA:Gilchrist’s (a Boston department store) usually had – I think they had a chicken ala king. I think they had chicken ala king. And, then Mom liked macaroons, so she’d usually get macaroons at the …
M:Macaroons?
MA:Yup. At …
M:Not the …
MA:At Gilchrist’s. We, you know, we liked the blueberry muffins, too, but Mom’s real favorite was the macaroons.
M:So, you say Gilchrist’s blueberry muffins. There was someplace they used to – Jordan’s where you …
MA:Yeah, I remember eating Gilchrist’s, um, the most. I think we ate also at some of the other stores, but we’d always – that would be, you know, we would have lunch and then later, you know, I worked there. I worked in Boston.
M:Where?
MA:Um, well, I did the jeep thing at Gilchrist’s.
M:Yeah.
MA:Um, but I worked at Filenes.
M:How was that?
MA:My – you’re gonna love this – I don’t know how old I was, 17, 18? I must’ve been 18 – 18, 19, anyway. My first job, um, was as, you know, I – you have to go in, you have to learn the ropes on how to run the registers and write up the sales and all that sort of thing. And, I think almost the very first assignment I had was on the first floor, which is the busiest floor, in this sort of like an alleyway by the escalators. And, they would have something like they wanted to sell a whole lot of. And, I was assigned to men’s underwear. Just what you would want to be doing at that age. I was not happy with that assignment. But, the up thing that I did there was, um, Loss Prevention asked me to, um …
M:Not like White Anglo Saxon Protestant? More like a bee?
MA:What do you mean?
M:Wasp?
MA:No. Loss – the people stealing stuff from the stores.
M:Oh, loss protection.
MA:And, Personnel asked me if I would, um, fake having an accident on the stairs because they wanted to see how their personnel that they were training would respond, so that was another big adventure for me.
M:That’s cool.
MA:It was pretty cool.
M:How’d you do?
MA:I did great. I did great. They did come, they did what they were supposed to, so that was good. Um, I used to – when I used to go – I used to always stop by and buy my mother flowers on the way home. That was a ritual, too.
M:You bought flowers for Mom?
MA:Yeah. On the way home. It was just something I did. Um, I liked, I guess I liked being an adult, you know, just, uh, I can’t say I loved to work in any way, shape or form, I mean, I – not being …
M:So, it’s like Eddie was talking about the idea of going to the Celtics game with Dad and special moments it sounds like. And, you had some special moments with Mom, shopping and …
MA:I did. You know, we talked about faith a lot. That was important to her, important to me.
M:How was it important to her?
MA:I think it grounded her. I think it gave her, uh …
M:So, you say …
MA:… it gave her hope.
M:You said, you talked about faith, I’m not sure what you mean when you say that.
MA:Well, I think it’s hard for anybody to describe what their faith is. I mean she, she was grounded in her Catholic faith. She enjoyed learning about it. She went to theology school. She was very proud of her theology degree.
M:Um, huh.
MA:Um, I think …
M:She had a theology degree?
MA:Yeah. I think I have her diploma upstairs.
M:Really?
MA:Yeah. She went to theology school.
M:Where?
MA:At – Cardinal Cushing had a series of …
M:For lay people?
MA:Yup. Um, huh.
M:Okay, so she went to the continuing education program in theology?
MA:Basically, yeah.
M:Okay.
MA:And, she loved that. And, I think she liked being intellectually challenged.
M:She also liked – I mean, I think she was really, um – my sense is that Dad was really grounded in his faith and that Mom was grounded, but she had lots of questions besides.
MA:Yes.
M:Because – and she certainly lived in such a way as that she felt that, you know, you didn’t have to have one way to believe in order to sort to be saved and I think that Dad, you know – when I told him that I just had a hard time listening to the priest and, uh, he said, I hope you’re, you’re beliefs serve you as well as mine have served me. And, you know, I can’t think of a better faith to have then to have that sense. I mean, that, you know, I find myself grounded in this and it’s not perfect, but it serves me really well and I hope yours serves you as well.
MA:Yeah, yeah. Very, very wise man. Um, I always felt Dad was really – he just felt so solid to me, so simple, but solid.
M:I think he was – well, yeah, I think he looked simple, but I think the reality is that he graduated from Boston College with high honors, uh, in the classics.
MA:Oh, yeah, I mean he – Dad was very, very smart, I’m not saying that he wasn’t smart – simple does not – simple means, uh, you don’t cause – make things more complex than they need to be.
M:No. I think that – no, I think that he was just – I think he was as a – his faith was one of experience not one of intellect. I think Matt’s faith was one of – Uncle Matt’s faith was one of intellect and not one of experience.
MA:Experience is a lot better. For me anyway.
M:Right. Right, and, yeah …
MA:Because I mean, I’ve always said this – you know, talking with Cathy or whatever, you know, we can’t, you know, I can’t have intellectual conversation with somebody about faith and, and convince them one way or another, you know, what are …
M:Or it wouldn’t be faith.
MA:Right, and, you know, exactly. But there’s a part of you, certainly from Uncle Matt’s perspective, that you should be smart enough that you should be able to argue with anybody about your faith and “come out on top.”
M:This is radical.
MA:Yeah, well, I think …
M:Yeah, I know, I grew up in that tradition.
MA:Right. So, Dad was different than that. He was just …
M:Saying this serves me well.
MA:Yeah.
M:Yeah. His devotion to the Blessed Mother was, was really a devotion to women.
MA:Yeah.
M:You know, and no matter how you want to secularize it or, or – and he was an honest person and, uh, and I think when he says, I hope your faith serves you as well as mine serves me, he, he was genuine.
MA:He meant it, yeah, exactly, exactly. Wouldn’t you want that for your child? You’d want a child to get it.
M:To have the curiosity to find what …
MA:Right.
M:Works for them.
MA:Comfort and all of that.
M:Yeah. So, you were talking about Mom when you were younger. Any other thoughts you have? So, the carnivorous girls, is that what? Cannibals?
MA:Oh, the Belmont Crazy Cannibal Organization. I think Mom was a really great mom for me because she always had my back. And, I knew that. I mean, I had girlfriends that, you know, broke my heart.
M:Yeah, you talked about there was that was like at Mount Trinity or something.
MA:Yes, uh, the girl …
M:The girl with the black hat.
MA:Yeah, the girl – her name was Nancy Burns and I had this very special relationship with her. Smart, we were both smart girls and, um, it’s that time in your adolescence when you usually attach to some particular girl and, um, and then I had this other girl who was younger than both of us. Elizabeth something, I can’t remember her last name. And, it became a triangle and sometimes triangles just don’t work and I got excluded and it was very heartbreaking to have that happen. But, Mom’s thing used to be, you have no friend but Jesus, but …
M:She said that?
MA:Oh, yeah. Often.
M:She never said that to me.
MA:Um …
M:So, she was, she was more open in her faith with you?
MA:I guess so. Well, I probably was more, um – well, I think she gave, gave that to me. I think – I was trying to think …
M:Well, I been always asking questions.
MA:Well, you know, thank God you – I mean people need to ask questions, I mean, I really think. I asked questions as I grew older. I was pretty much acceptance as a …
M:No, I just think that the story about Mom, um, and – the other thing I thought about, I think that Mom, um – two stories that I think that – well, Mom once told me that, uh, at her wedding, she was so nervous that she couldn’t remember people’s names. Okay. And, that she had, uh, the guy who was a doctor was a friend of Matt’s, uh, stand behind her and …
MA:Dr. Pat.
M:Dr. Pat.
MA:She loved that guy.
M:What was his last name?
MA:Sullivan.
M:Pat Sullivan. Pat Sullivan would stand beside her and tell her the names of the people because she couldn’t even remember her friends’ names.
MA:Yeah.
M:And, the other thing Mom told me is that in college, she really had a hard time, uh – she had a really good – to have an idea, but she had a really hard time sort of organizing and carrying through the idea. So, people would tell their kids different things.
MA:You know what? I think that doesn’t surprise me in a way because I think Aunt Mary was put on a pedestal. Now, I’m giving you what was Mom’s perspective.
M:Oh, no, she felt that her mother treated Mary, uh, and her father treated – she was her father’s favorite and …
MA:Of course, he died.
M:Yeah.
MA:So, then she …
M:Well, she talked about her father, you know, putting her on a ladder outside their deck and asking her to reach for something that was beyond her reach and his sort of believing in her and she talked about – she talked about her Dad, that he idolized her and she idolized him. And, she talked about her mother with less fondness.
MA:Right. Right.
M:Okay, and then Mary was always the smarter one. She was the older sister and she was the …
MA:Right, and she – and Mom was the pretty one. And, she, she knew she was pretty. I mean, that’s the way …
M:I think that Mom was really smart, but I think that Mom, uh, had a hard time – she could organize other people, she had a really hard time organizing herself.
MA:Well, I think – I’m just reflecting like you, I think part of this had to do with this whole Mary thing, you know, I mean, how, uh, respected or not respected – that she was and as an intellect or, or whatever. I mean, because I mean, here she was never good as much as …
M:She was differently smart.
MA:Yes, a different smart.
M:She was good with people and …
MA:Mom has perseverance. You know, I mean, she could stick through. I think Aunt Mary caved.
M:Well, the other thing that, that Mom’s – you know, as in terms of the house that we owned, that, uh, when Matt got overbearing, she said, you know, unless …
MA:Take it and leave it.
M:Right.
MA:Yeah, yeah. Good for her.
M:She did, he begged off. Backed off.
MA:Um, huh.
M:And, Eleanor …
MA:He apologized to her.
M:He apologized to her?
MA:I remember that story.
M:And, Eleanor – and Mother, I think they were just peas in a pod. I mean, they were just …
MA:I wonder if they were at first.
M:They weren’t.
MA:I didn’t think so, but as, as time goes on …
M:As time went on. And, I think that we became Eleanor’s children even more so than Aunt Ann’s.
MA:That’s so funny to me, I, I – sometimes I think like I have tunnel vision because I knew they existed.
M:No, they – I thought Roxbury was – West Roxbury was Roxbury.
MA:Yeah.
M:I thought they lived – and, I thought when we went to BC High and George McMahon (Eleanor’s nephew, no relation to us) was there with, you know, uh, some kind of boots they used to call them. They’re black and they’re …
M:Like motorcycle boots.
M:And, uh, they didn’t know these, and, uh, Mary Jo, uh, but Eleanor – Eleanor over time became, became tremendous resource for Eddie and, and, uh, you know, I just – I liked being with her, she was a nice …
MA:Yeah, yeah.
M:… and had this kind of …
MA:Very kind to all of us. But, I guess I didn’t realize all – I mean, I knew she – obviously, those were – that was her sister and family, um, but, I, God, I – one thing, being a McGuire, you did feel like you were special. There was – you know what I mean?
M:Right.
MA:Being a McGuire was, I mean, we could’ve had nothing, but we, we thought we were something.
M:Well, Mom certainly felt that way.
MA:Yeah. And, I – you know, there were certain bragging by Uncle Matt certainly, um …
M:I didn’t feel – I mean, if Uncle Matt was, um, formidable and scary, um, but …
MA:He was. He was.
M:But, later in life, I mean, when …
MA:But, he was great to us. He loved us in his own way. Think about this, I mean, men of that time were not the demonstrable, I mean, in the eyes …
M:Well, the story of, you know, Matt was, uh, didn’t have enough sperm. You know that story.
MA:Well, I mean, I heard from Mom.
M:Yes, never told about – I mean, Eddie was talking today about their Irish stories where, in the Irish kind of story, you just don’t talk about it. And, the idea that we don’t know a lot about Dad, I mean, I think there’s a story about Mom on the ladder reaching for something with her Dad and sort of – Mom tells it proudly, but told it with the idea that she was overreaching – he was putting her in an unsafe place and I think that she was actually in an unsafe place in her own family with her own mother. And, then, this story of her dad bringing her to the bank and getting on top of president of the bank’s, uh, desk and doing a dance in North Adams when she was a kid.
MA:I wish I’d remember more than what her Dad was doing because she did speak reverentially about that, not a lot, but, you know, she so loved her father. I mean, you know, and to lose him when she was pregnant with Eddie, I think.
M:Yeah.
MA:Just about to have Eddie …
M:Right.
MA:When he died and couldn’t go to his funeral, I think.
M:I don’t know, but I know that, um, her mother lived with us for a while …
MA:Um, huh.
M:… and then died.
MA:Yeah, and she had to give her Mom asthma shots everyday. She had that …
M:She had Mary and Fred.
MA:Mary and Fred and Mary was like hemorrhaging from having had Larry. So, she had Larry and Molly and, obviously, she had the three of us, all in that house.
M:Right. But, the idea is just like the people we were talking about today, uh, there were eight people in the house. If that’s what everybody’s doing, you know, you don’t know it.
MA:Oh, you know …
M:It was like being …
MA:I mean think – I mean she was pretty damn courageous lady.
M:No, I have – I think that if, uh, I think I used to argue with Uncle Matt, um, and I think we used to argue. I think that, you know, with the sense of, you know, if I do something wrong, I can do this – the house over my head. And, I think that she sometimes wished that Dad would stand up for her more.
MA:Yes, I think that’s true. Cause that wasn’t his personality.
M:And, that he would look for better jobs and …
MA:But, he told her he loved her every single day for her life and she and he loved each other. I mean they – there was no question about that.
M:No.
MA:And, she had a pretty handsome guy. And, he had a pretty good-looking wife.
M:No, but I think – I think that she – her irritation with him is that she felt he deserved that and he was more than he was.
MA:Oh …
M:And, Dad really felt that what I am is enough. I think Dad was more, I would say grounded in his faith than she was.
MA:Well …
M:He had more control of it than she did, too.
MA:Yeah, because – I mean – and sometime – I mean this may sound a little sexist, but I mean he, he had her and he had his, his family, you know, and he was secure and happy in that.
M:Right.
MA:That’s all he needed.
M:Right.
MA:Whereas for her, she was being constantly reminded about how great Uncle Matt was and …
M:Or how much money other people had.
MA:And – yeah, right, exactly. And, so she had to somehow put on a happy face, but she was the one that went into Raymond’s (discount store) to get the baseball gloves and she was the – I mean, she was the one that tried to see, you know, that – Dad did it in his own way, too, by the way he …
M:You know, I think you’re absolutely right, I think you’re absolutely right. I think that – I’m just saying I think that in difficult moments Mom felt life was little bit unfair to her and the Dad.
MA:Um, huh. I think that’s true. I totally think that’s true.
M:Thank you, Marianne.
MA:You’re welcome
[Transcription of Tape 3 copied from CD 3 ended here.]
[Transcribed by Karen M. Rayman, October 2012]
[Revised by Karen M. Rayman, December 2012]