MATT’S EARLIEST MEMORIES Part Two

[The interviewer is my best friend Jeff Glandt. This interview was July 12, 2012. Jeff’s questions are in italics.]

 

What was your first date? By date, I’m thinking something, you spent money on a young lady and you took her somewhere? 

Matt: Diane Murphy. 

Tell me about Diane Murphy. How did you meet her and how did you get the date with her?

Matt: I had a friend Frank and Frank had a girlfriend Trisha who he met at a dance at my school. Frank didn’t go to my school.  Frank was my best friend growing up.

And, how old were you?

Matt: Sixteen. And, a double date. And, Diane was relatively tall. She was maybe as tall as I was, she had blonde hair, blue eyed. She had a sort of tailored, not quite page-boy haircut, but relatively short here, but it was styled down. And, she was like – she was really pretty and I had my brother’s car for the night. My brother was in the Navy and he was on duty. But, I had a Chrysler Fury red convertible, black interior. 

What year? 

Matt: The current year, this would be 1964. 

Okay. 

Matt: And, we went to Harvard Square to a movie and then I was driving her back …

Do you remember the movie? 

Matt: I don’t remember the movie. I was driving her back and I hadn’t really kissed a girl and we made out in that car. It wasn’t a very romantic setting, it was in the parking lot near Harvard Square in the summer time. I guess it was the spring time, we were still in school, but would probably be May or so. And, it was really fantastic. I felt wonderful after that. 

Did you take her out again?

Matt: You know, curiously enough I didn’t. She was a very attractive girl and it was fun to do that, but I didn’t feel that emotionally close to her, it was just one time, but I didn’t feel negative toward her either. 

So, she’s your first date, so what would be your first love then?

Matt: That’s a lot tougher. I think probably my first love would’ve been Barbara Adams in the 8th grade in grammar school and she was a very pretty girl. And, I mowed lawns near where she lived and she would come over and talk to me. I just never – I couldn’t drive and with Rapid Transit it wasn’t as easy to get to where she lived. She was in the town of Arlington, which wasn’t a long way away, but it was five or six miles away. It wasn’t convenient. We both went to the same parochial school. But, I thought she was pretty neat. I think she liked me, too, I should’ve tried to figure out some way of going on a date, but never did.

What did she look like?  ...

Matt: Ash-blonde hair. Great smile. And, then, after that, then I’d say one after that. 

A mature love, where --  not to knock it down, but that’s almost kind of a crush thing, right?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, what about someone that you really spent some time with, you dated and you bonded with and that really did become …

Matt: Yeah.  I would say the first was Judy Frabotta.

Okay, so it  was your first wife? 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And, I met her in college.

What attracted you to her? 

Matt: Interesting. I think she seemed lively. Seemed very bright. Liked to have fun, liked to do things. And, we were in Washington, D.C., at the time. She was in another section of the city, a fair amount away. She was in Northeast. I was in Northwest. But, we used to do a lot of stuff together and she was pretty good company doing things together. Also, was pretty disciplined with respect to studying and school. I used to go over and hang out at her girls’ school, which was Trinity College, which is where, curiously enough, the lady Speaker of the House went to college.  

What’s her name? Nancy Pelosi?

Matt: Nancy Pelosi, yeah. I used to go there and it was always comfortable and to just do things. We would read, go to movies, go to lectures, and it was fun.

And, you guys dated for how long before you became married? 

Matt: We dated throughout college. I met her in my first year of college around Thanksgiving and could see her during the summer, too, because she wasn’t nearby, she was in Worchester, I lived in Belmont – that would be – she was about 45 minutes or an hour away.

So, you dated for four years then?

Matt: Four years and then got married out of college.

You didn’t get married because of college and for financial reasons or just didn’t seem right before then?

Matt: I think we were very close, but we wanted to get college done and we didn’t see how financially it would work. I finished college in three and one-half years. I didn’t know what was going to happen with the draft. I got a middle draft number, I would’ve been drafted, so I went into the District of Columbia National Guard. I wanted to go to law school, too. I got into law school and wanted things more settled and it seemed like a better time and then I went to law school (Catholic University Law School) at night for four years and worked during the day, which was an enormous grind. And, I’d go in the summers to law school also.

And, how did you know you were in love, or what would you say? How do you explain that or how do you know yourself when you’re in love with a woman?

Matt: Well, I think the feeling is that you feel very happy. You want to see the person. When you’re with them, it seems like things are better than normal or better than usual. That there is a certain energy to it that you feel that you and the other person with are more than each of you separately. You know, almost as with a good friend, as if you’re with your friend. Or sometimes people feel that if they’re with their family, everything’s going to work out or they’ll figure out a way to do something, I think, with a great sense of optimism. A sense of happiness, almost like a sense of, you know, giddiness, almost coming up from your solar plexus, almost into your throat or something. That’s what I would call it. 

And, did you remember kind of understanding the difference between a crush and love? Did you have anyone that you had a crush on and when you started to know them a little better, you didn’t like them as much?

Matt: I’m trying to remember. No, not as much, no, not like that. I can’t remember anything.

What was the most memorable family vacation that you can recall? 

Matt: Probably the most memorable one I had was when I was – the most vivid one that I had is I was 16 and my brother and I drove across the country. That was, that was absolutely mind-blowing.

So, take through some of that. What’d you guys do?

Matt: I met my brother, Jim, in Buffalo, New York. He started out before me and we started driving. We drove to Detroit where we knew someone. This is in 1965, you know, people were driving like 100 miles an hour down the freeway, it was like “holy shit.” And, we drove further from there.

You went to Detroit and stayed for a week?

Matt: A couple days. We knew somebody (Julie Sullivan). Jim was interesting. He had girls who were friends, but who weren’t necessarily – he always had an ability to make friends with girls, but they weren’t quite romantic friends, but they were sort of friends of his. And, you know, she was nice. She worked for Ford Motor Company. I think she eventually retired and her mother was friends with my mother. We stayed in her apartment for a couple days. I had Baskin and Robbins ice cream for the first time there. I went to Gaslight or Ford Village or something. It was like an amusement park of sorts. And, I had never been to Disney World or anything. I thought that Gaslight Village was really something. And, we didn’t have a lot of money, so we were trying to do everything on the cheap. And, I thought Detroit was really interesting.

And, then we drove to the Midwest and I saw for the first time, I think it was in Indiana – and I had a diary, which I didn’t keep and I had a camera, which I didn’t take too many pictures – but, like the Erma Bombeck book, I stood in Indiana, I remember looking out, we were driving and I could see for 50 miles in every direction and I thought, this is awesome. Because I had grown up in urban section of Boston where you have the ocean and the Appalachians. I never sat anywhere or stood anywhere seeing 50 miles and it was like at dusk and I thought I’m really living my life now. I mean, I’m 16, I’ve just learned how to drive. And, I’m thinking I’m going across the country. I’m really doing it. I used to watch the show Route 66 on TV where they were driving across the country having adventures in different places. I was thinking like, this is really amazing.

You went from Indiana to where?

Matt: My sister was in Seattle, Washington, at the time, so we went from national park to national park, so we went from Indiana – the next place I remember is Madison, Wisconsin, and that was Madison, Wisconsin, in 1965. A lot of stuff happening on campus. A lot of student unrest and stuff like that and the sense I got from Madison, Wisconsin, was like, wow, this place is one alive place. And, you had a sense that history was happening right in front of you. You know, like right next door to you. 

Um, huh, cause it’s Viet Nam unrest? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Okay.

Matt: Then, we went from Madison through Minneapolis and then I remember we started into South Dakota and I thought that South Dakota was beautiful in a way I had never experienced. I mean, wide open spaces. Then we saw the Badlands and I’m thinking like the Badlands are just more gorgeous than I ever thought anything could possibly be. And, then the Black Hills and then we went to Yellowstone (in Wyoming). And, when we were in Yellowstone, we left our food out on the table. A bear came by and ate all the food. And, I remember my brother – and my brother used to always kid me. We’d make a campfire and eat and we would be eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and Dinty Moore beef stew. That was our – you can still get Dinty Moore beef stew. We were eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and one day we left our stuff out and we came back and there’s a bear on the table. So, I’m like, let’s get away from the bear. And, my brother and I were like different personalities, I was like let’s get away from the bear and my brother was like, let’s get closer to get a better picture of the bear. So, my brother was  three feet away from the bear. Or we’d be trying to start the fire at night and I’d say, well, Jim, put the lighter fluid on it first before you light it, but then I want you to wipe it off, put it in the back of the car before you light it. I want you way away when you light it. And, he would just pour some more lighter fluid on the lit fire just to, you know, get me out of  my comfort zone. So I slept in the back of the car, he slept in the front.

This was a Rambler, right? 

Matt: The car was a 1962, Dodge Rambler. Big, boxy kind, but it had a fairly good back seat. We had canned food in the back. So, we took out the back seat and we had a board on top of the canned food. I slept on top of the board. Jim slept in the front seat under the steering wheel. And, the car was about ready to overheat at any time, so we had to keep it running. And, we drove across the country going – we didn’t want to go too fast to overheat it or too slow – we were traveling at between 58 and 62 miles per hour all the way across the country. And, we were driving mostly county or state roads. So, county or state, maybe four lanes at most, but nothing like interstate today. So, you really get to see things. So, we went from Yellowstone to Waterton-Glacier National Park on the Montana/Alberta border. And, then we went from Waterton-Glacier, we came down, and we went to Seattle. We stayed with my sister for a few days. My sister was a great cook, great food, and saw Seattle for the first time, sort of like a big New England, fantastic! Went from Seattle to Olympic National Park in Washington State. A beautiful park, a rain forest in the Pacific Northwest. I saw the Pacific Ocean for the first time there. It was very different from the Atlantic. I saw it on a cloudy day and cool 50 degrees. It was raw powerful and impressive. From there, we drove to Yosemite National Park and then to San Francisco, coming down central California. And, San Francisco, that was the first time – my brother knew some people there and I went into this meeting of a group of people and there was sort of a séance. Everybody was – I think they had just smoked dope and they were sitting around a table holding hands and I’m thinking like – what has this Boston boy gotten himself into? And, I went around the campus at Berkley. I walked around the campus for a little bit. And, we came back through the Grand Canyon, Bryce and Zion Canyons in Utah and then back through Nebraska and then back. Three weeks – we went 6,000 miles in 21 days, about 500 miles a day. 

Really saw a lot though?

Matt: Yeah, we were – and, oh, when we got to Denver, we ran out of money, so we stayed – we called my uncle – my Uncle Matt – and he says, well – he knew everybody. He knew a judge in Denver, so he calls this judge he knows in Denver – another Federal judge – we go to this Federal judge’s house. He says come on in boys, you know, we come in, we get put up in a room in his house in Denver. They serve us a big, big, big meal. We say hello to everybody and then we started – they give us some money and then we’re off again. This was before, you know, ATMs or wiring money. So, it was fun.

Any vacations you’ve done later that would include Mandy or anything like that? 

Matt: I would say we had a great vacation, we went to my niece’s wedding in Ireland. We took Mandy and it was a lot of fun to go there. We went to the Cliffs of Mohr, which are great big cliffs overlooking the ocean. They are up several thousand feet. And, we went to a little store and got some food and I went there with my other brother, my sister, Mandy and Barbara. All of us had a wonderful picnic overlooking the ocean at the Cliffs of Mohr. We had a place to stay, we we’re staying in this sort of country house. It was really nice and we stopped and played some card games and board games with them. We did that at night, so that was a lot of fun. And, we went to Disney World with Mandy as a kid. That was fun going there. Enjoyed that. And, let’s see, where else?

Anything with David?

Matt: We used to spend a week every Easter at my Mom’s house, seeing the sights of Boston, going to movies, playing cards, and hanging out. The last day would be a big dinner with extended family at Easter.

If you could do one thing differently in your life, what would that be?

Matt: I probably would – I think I was always in a rush, although, it’s interesting, I’ve counseled other people not to be in such a rush. I was in a rush, because I had three older siblings, so I was in a rush to catch up with them, to have a family, to have children so my children could be contemporary to their children. I think I would’ve slowed down with that. Not been in such a rush. Taken more time, maybe, I wish that I had took some time off, either off to see someone or see some friends or see a girlfriend. I wish I had maybe sat and talked to my parents a little more or maybe – I was always sort of afraid of missing some great thing that was fun. I wish I had just played maybe an extra game of cards with my parents or something. Although, I spent a lot of time with them. Or seeing a show on TV or had an ice cream cone with them or other people and not have been in such a rush and I wish I would’ve been – maybe lived alone a little bit more. To be more comfortable in my own skin and with myself and not – you know, spent a little more time, maybe reading – who knows if I would’ve even done that? But, either reading or getting and maybe doing more traveling. And, now, I do some of that, when I visit Toronto, Canada, I will go to dinner by myself, or see a really good play. I will go off and I will do more to experience a new place I am visiting. And, you know, it’s not quite the same – finding a pal – but, I used to always wanted to have a pal to do everything with. I wish I had been a little less that way and taken a little more time by myself. I probably would’ve done more travel, done more things before I started a family and got engaged in work. Because I feel like I’ve been very fortunate in my life, but I really feel like I was engaged with heavy responsibility early. I was married at 22, had a kid at 24. I feel like it’s been – I feel like I’ve done it in the right way and I think I’m happy with both my children doing well, but it’s been a heavy load for a long time. There are sometimes I wish I had just waited a bit, and I’ve encouraged both my son and my daughter to do that – they enjoyed their time after college. I wish I had done that differently.  

What’s the funniest family story you can remember? 

Matt: I don’t know if my father found it funny, but I was young kid and we would live paycheck-to-paycheck. When my father gets paid, we always had strawberry shortcake, made with a biscuit, not any of that sponge cake stuff. Made with a biscuit on payday night. 

The original strawberry shortcake. 

Matt: The original. And, I remember when the whipped cream came out of a can and, you know, I remember when it first came out. Mother used to whip the cream before that. But, when it came out, I thought it was really the thing, a great invention. And, I was the youngest, and I would say, you know, can I put the whipped cream on the shortcake. I remember father said, you know, he’s too young to put the whipped cream on it, he’s too young. Because my father was coming home from work, pretty regularly, he would take the streetcar to work, he didn’t take the car in and he’d get home, usually around six, pretty regular. And, my mother would say, no, Jim, I think he’s fine, he’s fine. And, my brother’d say, yeah, he can do it fine. And, my father said, I don’t know, I’m the only one in a suit, I don’t think he’s gonna put on that whipped cream right. And, I had confidence, I can do it, I can put the whipped cream on right. So, my father, my father says, go ahead, why don’t you do it. So, I take the can, I’m nervous and I hit it and it goes flying all over his tie, all over his suit, you know, and if you don’t – if you didn’t get the nozzle, it didn’t come out full, it came out in little spurts and then my father, I remember he was mad as hell at me. And, then I remember my mother and my brothers and my sister laughing uncontrollably hard and I started laughing and my father said, it’s not funny, it’s not funny, it’s not funny, and finally he started laughing. That’s one story I remember.

Did your family laugh a lot?

Matt: Yes, they laughed at … 

Who would laugh the most or easiest to laugh or who was the funny man of the family? Was there, or was everyone their fair share?

Matt: I’d say everyone was their fair share. I remember my mother sometimes would laugh so hard she couldn’t talk. She would start to say something, but she’d start laughing and she’d be – there was almost the sound of her voice, she’d be laughing so hard, she’d have to put her hand on the table and she’d – she just couldn’t get the words out. But, that kind of laughter, what I would say, almost a cascade of laughter. And, most of the laughter was pretty funny. Usually, it wasn’t at the expense of someone else. You know, just something, or it would be a funny – and, you know, people were pretty quick with remarks and it was a similar sense of humor. My mother once said, you know, gee, Jim, did you see the news that a pilot crashed in the cemetery? And, my father said, no, I didn’t hear about it, but didn’t have to go far to bury him. And, she said the same thing to my brother and he said the same thing. And, they hadn’t heard what the other one said. But, that was their response. I’m sorry for the guy who passed away, but that was sort of their way. My Aunt Kathleen, my father’s sister, said my father would keep her family laughing when they were growing up. My dad would do imitations of Liberace and was the family comedian. My own recollections of my home was a high energy level, with my brothers and sister bringing friends to dinner. Both my brothers and my sister had their own sets of friends. A lot of times people and maybe when my sister and brothers were in high school all their friends would be over, they’d collapse the dining room table and roll up the rug and then they’d dance to music and or people would be over late at night or people would be visiting and they’d play a game of cards, have a cup of coffee. I remember it – and my folks would have a party like once or twice a year and they’d have, you know, alcoholic beverages and stuff, but usually people never drank more than one or two drinks that I know. Anybody. And, some didn’t drink at all, but more people would – I remember summer nights where people would come by. Sometimes they’d even come by by 10 o’clock and everybody’d go out and have ice cream or something like that or they’d be playing cards or visiting or something like that. I remember it being lively and sometimes I wish that I had read a little more, but it was very entertaining all the time. 

When did you guys get TV?

Matt: I’m trying to remember what I saw on TV. I remember watching – I was maybe in the first grade or something. Let’s see, I’m 64, I was 6 or 7 in the first grade, so that would be ’55 or so. And, I remember seeing Captain Kangaroo and the other one was Howdy Doody. I thought that was a stupid show, but everybody was so in love with it.

And, he was a puppet?

Matt: He was a puppet just like …

Cowboy puppet?

Matt: Cowboy puppet and … 

I never saw it, but it was like a real mix of the gentleman and the puppet, right?

Matt: Yeah, Buffalo Bob and Howdy Doody and Clarabelle the Clown. And, then …

Clarabelle the Clown was a real woman dressed as a clown or …

Matt: Yeah and I didn’t find her funny, but that’s the beginning of me and clowns.

And, these are morning shows, aren’t they? Captain Kangaroo …

Matt: Yeah.  

… for kids before they went to school?

So, Captain Kangaroo’s a morning show?

Matt: Um, uh. 

Might’ve watched a little TV before you went off to school? Or did you guys watch shows in the evening that come to mind? As a  family show? Did everyone gather around for Bonanza on Sunday night or Ed Sullivan or anything like that?

Matt: We used to watch Ed Sullivan as a family, I remember that, particularly when they had  big acts come on. I remember watching the Rifleman with Chuck Connors, for sure. And, I remember my mother loved Paladin (Richard Boone) and Gunsmoke. And, then I remember Bonanza later, but I remember Gunsmoke is the show that they would always watch. I also remember TV being black and white and I think it was – we had neighbors down the street, the guy was a fire chief, he always got a new car every year, and whatever – he was sort of like, if there was something new, he had it. And, I remember going up and seeing color TV and they were watching Lawrence Welk. And, my mother was very good friends with the lady down the street and her daughter was my same age, but I – her name is Cathy Sullivan – nice person, but I never had any sync with her, but she was a little be heavy set, lost weight as she got older. But, I would take her dances at her school. The mothers would arrange it and I would take her to dances, she was fine, a nice person. I was a pretty good date from the standpoint of going along and having somebody to go with. I remember going upstairs to their house and seeing color and I was thinking, wow, is this something. Even with Lawrence Welk, which I would never watch, even now.

Did you guys play the radio around the house much, too, and listen to music or records?

Matt: Listened to a lot of music and I guess I remember the music my folks listening to would be Montovani 

Okay.

Matt: My sister would listen and still listens to it now, Johnny Mathis. It used to be so great because we’d get  more records around Christmas because they would be gifts and I know I would shovel snow and it was really good to shovel snow because a record at that time was about three or four dollars, but if you shoveled snow – and it was backbreaking work – we would shovel snow for people, but you could get $12.00 and that would buy two or three records, so that’s when I started to buy some records myself. My brother was listening to jazz, he was listening to a lot of Stan Getz (saxophonist) and Antonio Carlos Jobin (Bossa Nova). I remember when I was 16, I saw Astrud Gilberto, who sang the hit “The Girl From Ipanema,” I saw her sing that at Boston College. And, I was like – way far away – but I did hear her sing the song. I was enjoying a lot of jazz and the Beatles. Things were really changing, I mean there was a palpable shift between my sisters, brothers music, for example – the Kingston Trio, I mean there was sort of folk music.  And, folk music had a more edginess to it.

It had kind of political edge at the time, didn’t it? This was kind of a movement.

Matt: Yeah, and then the Beatles came and then the Beatles were like – it was scraping the ocean clean or something. The Beatles came in and it was like “what is this” – I mean it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t 20 percent different, it was 4,000 percent different. And, I remember when that came and I was like, wow, I can’t believe it. Couldn’t believe the next album they came out with, it was so revolutionary and then when I went to college, it was like penny loafers and blue oxford shirts and, by the time I finished, it was Grateful Dead hairstyle. There was a tectonic shift and I don’t think I’ve seen again in my life – in I would say from ’61 through ’70, it was unbelievable. We were going to go to LA when I did that trip across the country, but we didn’t go because they had the L.A. Watts riots. And, when I was in Georgetown University, they had the D.C. riots and I went up to the top of one of the buildings looked 12 blocks and saw the city (Washington, D.C.) burning. And, when you see something like a city burning, not just a fire, but a city burning, it’s disturbing and makes an indelible impression.

Now, did your father or mother ever get after you for what you were listening to, cut your hair, Matt, or anything like that?

Matt: My father and mother were pretty laid back. I think because I was the youngest child, they referred to me a bonus baby, so “read that to mean,” I was an “oops.” My dad was 45 when I was born, my mother was 37. I don’t remember, I think they were pretty fine with whatever I listened and I was listening and being influenced by my older siblings and, I would get clothes that my brothers had worn or something like that. I think there was a limitation on the amount of money they had and like they wouldn’t want me to wear out shoes quite as quickly or my father would want us to try powdered milk instead of regular milk, which none of the children liked. But, I didn’t find things as much directed at me. I found my parents to be – they seemed to like each other’s company, and I guess if I was going to explain it, no, I didn’t find them as particularly pushing me; however, I felt like I needed to go to college. I needed to do well, but I felt that more as a member of the family than I felt any particular family member telling me to do that. But, I did think I had to do that because I sort of felt that was expected of me. But, to do well in any particular subject or for any particular reason, no I didn’t feel anything like that.

Was there ever a time that you really disappointed your parents that comes to mind?

Matt: I think probably my first semester of college because I got like a 1.7 – I got to college after being in an all guys high school, and I used to do four hours homework a night, every night, in high school. I did that for four years. I got to college and hit age 18, I just really partied it up. I think I must’ve disappointed them, but they were pretty good about it, but I remember my uncle saying, look, you know, you’re going to wind up nowhere – my uncle would be …

This would be Uncle Matt?

Matt: Yeah, he would be like, you’re not going to get into law school, you’re not going to get anywhere unless you do something about your classes, and you’re going to have to turn things around. 

Do you remember that conversation?

Matt: Conversations! 

All right, so you heard it from your Uncle Matt  more than once? 

Matt: Yeah, I mean, I would go over …

Just trying to picture this, you’re sitting at his house, maybe?

Matt: Yeah, one of the reasons I went to Washington, D.C., to school is that he was a Federal judge there and he had an apartment, so I was at Georgetown University and he was maybe a 30 minute bus ride away. He wasn’t too far away. You’d get there by car in about 10 minutes. And, I used to take a bus over there and I’d go on Sunday and I had Sunday dinner with him frequently.

He’s married and had kids? 

Matt: He didn’t have any children. He and his wife didn’t have any kids. 

So, you’re coming over was …

Matt: So, I would come over and he’s saying, you know, what the hell are you doing, and it would be like right out of the gate, what the hell are you doing? You’re gonna have to do better …

You obviously respected him, but did you fear him or dread the conversation or were you enlightened and just took it as it came? Do you remember?

Matt: I don’t think I feared, it’s odd, he was a imposing figure and most people – but, since I was named after him, I sort of his namesake, it’s sort of like, well, I figured I should just sit there and listen and he was right, I mean, I didn’t think he was wrong about it, I thought it was a fair comment. And, eventually, I did turn things around. But, yeah, he was definitely disappointed cause he’s telling me, he’s disappointed. 

What are you most grateful for in life?

Matt: I’d say my friends and my family. I’ve had very good friendships throughout my life, I think that’s one of my distinguishing factors and I think I’ve had, I’d say, good relationships with my family members, I’m happy for that. And, don’t have too many regrets in the way I have lived my life. Some, but not many. Sometimes I’m thankful for – if you read, if you’re a history major – I’ve always loved history – but, I’m thankful for modern dentistry and modern anesthesia.

You’re grateful for the time period you live in?

Matt: Yeah, I think so many people through history have worked so hard. I read “Little House on the Prairie” books, I mean, just to stay in a house that doesn’t leak, to have air conditioning, to have a place – to have food that’s not gonna kill you. To have modern sewage, to have – and I’m thinking the type of life you can have now – I can have at 64 compared to two centuries, I mean I’d be dead by 64, so I’m thankful for that.

Are there items or places that mark special gratitude for the ones you love?

Matt: I think I’ll always think about South Dakota – there’s something special about the place, it’s something spiritually special, something comforting about it. 

Particularly the region of the Black Hills?

Matt: Yes, and there’s something about the Black Hills that I think is eternal and comforting and  I think of it as just a very nice place. I think of Kansas City as a very good place to live.

And, really, you talked about the plays, the friendships, the baseball games. Was Kansas City itself a beautiful city and things to do there?

Matt: They have some nice things, no not particularly, and that was sort of the interesting thing about the place, there was nothing that I thought was dramatically great there, but there were many things that were always very good there. And, the life was good, it wasn’t great, but it was good. And, we would go to nearby towns. But, growing up in New England, seeing the New England falls and winters that I had as a kid was fantastic. And, I enjoyed the other thing that I mentioned, I did get to the beach fairly frequently, but they would be day trips – we would day-trip people to the beach. And, I’d sit out under an umbrella – it would be Revere Beach, which is now a resort area, but they had big bathhouses and you would go there and I remember the beaches being sort of timeless, and having a long day and, you know, really having a day that I could play as much as I want, and we’d have something to eat, and we’d go back later. And we’d go back later and we always brought sandwiches. It was like you never went out to eat. You always had to bring your food with you. I remember the beach being a fun time. It’s interesting, just in this conversation, thinking back, I remember what’s different about that, I did not feel the pressure of time I feel now. I remember going to the beach and sort of the day just drifting on forever or the day drifting on long enough that when you came home at night, you’d think, wow, that was, that was really a great day. And, I looked at the sky all day and I was out in the sun.

And, when it was over you weren’t concerned that it went too quick or it just seemed right?

Matt: No. It just seemed like, that’s okay. Or going for a day sledding or going to the beach – I guess time seemed, I don’t want to say appropriate, but it seemed sufficient, it seemed right, or the timing seemed right. It seemed like, you know, “gee, I went to the beach for a couple days in the summer, yeah, so I did it and I really had a good time and did everything we wanted or I went sledding in the winter or, I think – and I felt that way also about – still do about South Dakota. You know, I’d go for a day – go for a hike, do some things, do other things and I’d think like that was a really good day. That whole day that was comforting. I felt complete. The only thing I can liken it to is a meal that you finished and you could take two more bites and it would be too much, but if you took one more bite, it would be the last perfect bite, and would just finish it off perfectly. That’s what I felt like.

Did you have a lot of anticipation or remember things – where you were someone that was definitely looking forward to Christmas or looking forward to your birthday or …

Matt: Oh, yeah, I mean, I would love Christmas, love the pageantry of it and my aunt and uncle would visit from D.C. and sometimes cousins – a great time, I loved the Christmas holidays. I even liked it when it snowed. I liked shoveling snow. I liked new movies when they came out. I remember when they had Blockbusters, I used to love standing in line. I remember going to see the “Longest Day” with my friend Frank and thinking, boy, this is going to be a great movie. It’s in a big theater in Boston, big line. We used to go to Upstate New York and visit my aunt’s farm. Used to like going up there because we played cards (Hearts) and hang out. And, that was another sort of place that you could just sort of be yourself and get going on a bike around the area. The kids there were sort of jerky kids and I didn’t like them as much. I liked going to the beach, yeah, I’d look forward to going places. I remember we’d either play a game, we’d play a board game or we’d play cards or something around the house. It got harder when my siblings started to leave. My sister got married, and then my older brother moved out in college. I remember loving that. I remember really looking forward to that. Really, really loving a large family gathering where everybody was playing Hearts and somebody getting the Queen of Spades and everybody laughing. I remember that as great fun. 

You talked about the card games, etc., a lot of this – is it a sincere love for card games or is it a nostalgic feeling, too, to sometimes play card games?

Matt: I think for me it’s nostalgic. I think my brother Ed – it’s almost like – there’s almost a meaning to the game itself. I think you can take games on many levels. There’s a book by Herman Hess, called “The Glass Bead Game” or “Magister/Ludi” I think for some, you know, it was very important to win but, for me, I remember – and being the youngest, I wouldn’t necessarily win a lot, I’d lose a lot, so I just remember people getting together, hanging out, and these games were like Cribbage or Hearts, which are not – they’re not as complex.

Did anyone play Bridge?

Matt: My mother and father would play that with my aunt and uncle, my mother’s sister.

You mentioned ____.

Matt: Yeah, they’d play Bridge and I tried it a couple of times and I’d rather reconcile my checkbook or go to work. And, I’m sure people – like with Chess, feel like, I’d rather redo my sock drawer or scrub the grout in the bathroom with a toothbrush or something. I don’t get it, you know, but I don’t like Soduku either, so.

Do you like board games?

Matt: Yeah, board games that are easier to learn, I’d like stuff like Chutes and Ladders, Game of Life, and Monopoly. Risk is a great board game that could flow back and forth, you could have dramatic turns in the game. It’s something that you didn’t have to be as particular in your play. In my job, I have to be very particular about what I write, what I say, and how I say it, so I actually like games that you don’t have to be that way. Something you can master and play and have a good time, like the Masterpiece Game (Art Auction) or Clue, those type of games would be. Something like that.

Is there any memory of something that happened in your life that taught you something of changed your outlook on life?

Matt: Yeah, I think so. I remember getting in a fight in the third grade and I remember sort of doing okay in the fight in the school yard. I was the biggest kid in my grade versus another grade and the kid’s name was Noel Barada. I remember after the fight, two of my friends, Richard Mazocki and Mark Haley came up and said you’ve done enough right now, you’re okay. And, I remembered then that having friends to support you was really important. You had to stay really close to your friends regardless of what the authorities were around said, the people you had to rely on the most were your friends. 

What was the fight about? 

Matt: He was the biggest kid in his class. I was the biggest kid in mine. 

Okay. 

Matt: And, I think it was just sort of manufactured as – I don’t even remember the reason. I just remembered I had to get in a fight with him. 

You remember that moment afterwards? And, any others?

Matt: Yeah, I remember when I was working for this company for about 13 years, Banner Life, and I thought it was pretty set and I thought my life was established and there was a guy who was a VP, became President, and I got along with him before became President and he turned into a sort of – for lack of a better term – you know, a boss from hell, a yeller and a screamer and he came in and he screamed at me one day about something that was fairly innocuous and I decided that day that I was going to leave the company, just because of the fact that I just didn’t want to put up with that kind of abuse. But, at that time, I knew that I had to leave and I started looking to – I started checking with headhunters and looking to other jobs and then within, oh, I’d say two and one-half months after making that internal decision, I was in Kansas, Missouri, and I lived there for four years. Had a great four years there. Had a good group of friends, a fun time, did a lot of stuff, got engaged in many different things, did more 5k and 10k road races and things like that, played cards, and had parties with friends. It was a really nice time. But, that was all a follow on to the decision that I wasn’t going to let that boss be abusive to me – so, what I take out of that is you can be very established in your life and everything can be turned upside down and you can start all over again, new furniture, new house, everything, but the basic “you” stays although you have a chance to reinvent yourself some. You have the chance to become a different person. So, that changed me and I think the experience of separating from my first wife also was a dramatic experience. Suddenly, I thought my life would go a certain way and it was going a whole different direction. Instead of being 30 and married, I was 30 and divorced, and I was sleeping on a friend’s couch. Again, I think that taught me that you have to be able to rely on your friends, rely on your family and sometimes what you think is going to happen in your life whether it be work-wise or personal relationship-wise, can be something very different. But, it also opens up new possibilities, life becomes very vibrant, becomes very intense, and that’s not all bad, sometimes it’s bad, but it’s not all bad, and doesn’t happen like you think it will. And, that people – if you change your circumstances, people will suddenly talk to you more, do more things with you. Some people are kinder, some people will sort of shy away from you and some people will be closer to you and you’ll find that some people like and support you more than you knew. Those were two examples – I think moving and living in a bunch of different places, I think moving has always been a psychic shock to the system for me and I think the continuity in life is my family, certainly, my sister and my brothers, my children, and my friends, that seems – I guess if some friends stay in the same place and don’t move and are continuing on with their lives, that is sort of a reference point by which  I can continue on with mine.

Right. Now, the intensity you referred to, is that intensity like listening to Steely Dan after the divorce, the intensity of the music, intensity of your emotions?

Matt: Yeah, sure. Really strong emotions, certainly that. Like I could almost blend into the music, identifying with the music far more than I ever identified with any music, the Steely Dan “Aja” album would be – I think it’s sort of a – you go and you drive – it’s like you drive in clear weather and then you’re in fog and then you see some beacons, you see images of things and, yes, that became an image that I figured if I could listen to and enjoy and stay with that music, then somehow that would lead me out of wherever I was. Wherever I was – I didn’t really know where I was. So, the intensity of that was much higher, yeah, for sure. And, the intensity that you’re suddenly having conversations with people and then the conversation just takes on a little richer tone. Every conversation just seems a little bit more present to you. 

Jeff remarks he was so worried about he and his wife being divorced – almost so conscious of being alone that intensity of  not being – definitely wanted to know what other people were feeling.

Matt: Yeah, and I would want to go – I mean I would either work late – I started working a lot later when I got divorced and then I would go out to a club or something just to go there. I didn’t necessarily want to connect with every person there, have a profound conversation. I just wanted to feel their energy. I wanted to feel the energy of the club, so I’d go there and then I’d go back to the apartment where I was and I just go to sleep. It was just a place where I would sleep.

What is your earliest memory of school?

Matt: I went to a place called Mount Trinity and I lived in a suburb of Boston called Belmont and there was like a four-lane road one street over from our back door and across from that there was a country club and near the country club grounds, there was an old, very big, must have been a school or maybe someone’s house, called Mount Trinity. I went to kindergarten there, so it was on a big rolling hills golf course and we’re in a side building and I remember going to school and not really wanting to go. I was pretty happy staying at home. And, I think it was okay. I didn’t like my kindergarten teacher that much.

Half-day school then? 

Matt: I think it probably was a full day when I went.

Was it? 

Matt: Yeah. And, I remember once I did something, I misbehaved, and they put me in the stock room with another kid and I was more worried about the kid from being in the storeroom. The storeroom by myself was fine, but being with the kid, he seemed weird. So that’s some of my early memories. And, what I remember about New England is with this country club, in the fall, we could go and play football and they had the sugar maple trees and they’d be beautiful reds and oranges, very vivid colors. There’d be a nip in the air and I remember you’d go out on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, or maybe if you get out enough early after school, you’d play football. Touch football or even tackle. We had this big lush, green field to play on. And, then winter would be – I remember going sledding and we’d have a long, I’d say, minute and a half sled ride, which is pretty long down this big, big hill and the high cirrus clouds, it would be cold, but it would be – everybody’d be out on a winter’s day and everybody’d be having fun. It would be great, after a snowfall, it’d really be fun. The snow would stay so you could – we used to sometimes leave our house at night and go sledding at night or go tobogganing in a full moon. And, that was real amazing, too!

Any teachers that you really connected with or liked?

Matt: My first eight years of elementary, there was a teacher I liked very much, her name was Sister Florita (my 5th grade teacher) and she was a strange teacher in a way. She used to give me quite a hard time, but then she also used to ask me questions, she thought I was pretty bright and she used to challenge me with doing different projects and different things. And, I got to really like her quite a bit, but she had a heart condition. She died that year.

Oh, is that right? 

Matt: Yeah, so that was … 

What grade was this?

Matt: Fifth grade. So, I went to her funeral, I felt bad that she had passed away and she was not – it was interesting – for a teacher, she was not easy on me. She was demanding of a certain intellectual working at school, but she was never personally demeaning to me. She was different than the other nuns, she was never personally sarcastic. She was just insistent. So, I remember her and I remember in high school, I had a great charismatic teacher called Mr. Haggerty. Mr. Haggerty taught English and we were reading great stuff, great books. You know, books like To Kill A Mockingbird, and Cry the Beloved Country by Alan Paton. Evocative wonderful books and he would have us read the book, then we would do a rough draft of what we thought – a report – then a final draft. Then, we’d have an exam and then we’d have the discussion after the exam. And, I thought the discussions were just spectacular by that time people had really worked over the book and when you had a discussion about – I remember the reading the poetry, the books we read, I just thought, boy, this is really great. That was much better than college, that was the best literary experience I ever had, I had nothing close to it after that. So, I remember him being a real great inspiring teacher.

Any teachers you didn’t connect with or disliked or are memorable? 

Matt: I remember in grammar school (second grade), I had Sister Ella Mark and one day I did something that bothered her and she was giving out little calendars and so she gave a calendar to everybody in the class but me, just sort of a petty thing. And, I remember my father picked me up that day and I told it to him what happened and he says, well, I picked up some calendars just for you for this time. He had – (apparently they were giving out calendars at his work) So he gave me a calendar and that was my calendar at  home and I started putting stuff on it. But, I thought that was – he had a cheerful way of making me feel better by saying, really the calendar he had was better than the calendar my teacher had. They gave out little dinky calendars. And, I had a teacher in high school – after I had Mr. Haggerty, I got advanced to a higher English group and he was really slow at correcting papers, so we’d have like three or four papers and he’d ding you for a mistake in your first paper, but he wouldn’t hand it back until you’d done your 4th paper, so, of course, you repeated the same mistake four times. And, most of the time I’m pretty compliant, I don’t want to make waves, but sometimes if something really bothers me, I will take action, so I complained to the principal of the school.

Kind of making that notation to the principal, how can I correct an error if I’m not told?

Matt: Yeah, I went in and I wanted to meet with the principal and it’s like what are you doing, huh? I said, well, I want to meet with you and I want to talk to you and I said, I understand that we have a rigorous study environment, but I can’t correct mistakes– what can I do if I get corrections four in a row at the same time, I can’t go ahead and adjust that. And, my teacher then changed that, but I didn’t get along great with my teacher after that, but it was – in high school, I was promoted up, I was in a preparatory high school and I was with, I would say, there was like the high-range, mid-range, and jock range in my class, an all boys’ school. And, I was in like the mid-range, but after the first year, I get promoted up to the top range particularly for History and English, but I did so poor in Math, they kicked me down two ranges, so I was in like the jock class for Math, but I was in the brain class for English and History. And, I actually liked going to the jock classes better than the brain classes. I mean those in the brain classes went on to the Ivy League schools, but, I just didn’t like them as much.

In the brain classes?

Matt: Yeah, I just found them a little bit too …

Were they uppity or … 

Matt: Yeah, a little bit egghead. Well, they weren’t – I just didn’t feel like I was on the same sync with them. They were a little bit more eggheads than I would like. Or, they were so involved in the subject matter or they’re very good at what they did, but they weren’t too outgoing. They didn’t seem like regular guys to me for want of a better term, they just seemed – I think it would be unfair to say that they were – they weren’t – my high school experience – I didn’t have bad experience with anybody really being nasty. With one exception, I got in a fight in second year of school on the bus, but other than that I was pretty good.

What did you want to be when you grew up? Were there different incarnations of wannabes happening for you, what was probably the youngest wish?

Matt: I think about the second or third grade, I wanted to be a lawyer. I don’t know if I knew what that meant, but my uncle’s name was Matthew McGuire, I was named for him. One brother, Jim, was named for my father’s father, the other brother, Ed, for my mother’s father and then I came. My uncle Matt was my father’s older brother and he actually bought the house we lived in and he had helped my father and my other uncle who lived upstairs with my aunt get their jobs. So, very much the – in essence the rich uncle of the family. 

And, he was a lawyer?

Matt: He was a lawyer who had a successful law practice with a future governor of Massachusetts – he was a lawyer, he was sort of involved in politics. He had run a successful congressional campaign and he knew – and as a prize for doing that Franklin Delano Roosevelt (then the U.S. President) said he would make him a federal judge. He wanted to be made a federal judge in Massachusetts, but FDR didn’t have any judgeships there then, so he made him a federal judge in Washington, D.C. So, my Uncle Matt when he was 38 was made a judge for life on the Federal Court. So, let’s just say he had a good sense of self-esteem. Yeah. So, I wanted to be a lawyer. I didn’t want to be any other things. I thought of maybe being a psychologist. And, in helping people doing something like the Peace Corps or doing something like community development work. But, when I was in college, I did a little bit of community development work, I sat around a Laundromat for, you know, five or eight hours, I didn’t think it was interesting. I thought maybe I would be a doctor for a while, but then, biology, I found it both dull and overwhelming at the same time. I knew you use a tremendous amount of energy to learn science and memorizing and the experiments. I didn’t want to be a doctor, probably wanted to be a professional, lawyer seemed like it. And, by and large, it’s been a pretty good living supporting my family. I feel like I have given people a lot of good advice, I do feel like I have made good decisions that have stopped things from getting much worse or much more expensive. Whether I would have done it again, probably if I did it over again, I’d be maybe a history teacher, but maybe that would’ve had it’s own problems. Writing and researching stuff, I don’t know. But, being a lawyer generally probably a fairly good choice for me. I sometimes think I don’t have the killer instinct that some lawyers have and people want them to have and I think you either have that instinct or you don’t. I just don’t have it.

Do you need that though, in business law or more, that killer instinct? 

Matt: I don’t know if I need it in what I’m doing, which is inside legal counsel, but some of the people who I have worked for, thought you needed; however, sometimes people want to use a lawyer like an enforcer, like muscle, they want you to beat somebody up and I’m very reticent to be willing to let myself be used in that way. I mean I do think there’s an important role of, you know, telling people there will be serious consequences, sometimes threatening people, letting them know that nobody’s going to win at this, so there is a certain amount of pestering to it, but there’s some people who they just want to fight just because of the thrill, the drama of the fight, that’s what gets the juices going is the combat. They want combat. They’re seeking it. 

What was your first job and how did you get that?

Matt: My first job, let’s see I’m trying to think. My first job was raking fire lanes at Walden Pond and I got it through my father as summer appointment for about six weeks. Walden Pond is where Henry David Thoreau was.

It was like a summer job?

Matt: Summer job, yeah. And, it’s more like a lake, what you would call a lake in other places but in New England it was called a pond. And, my mother would drop me off in the morning and I’d work all day, clean out bathrooms, rake the beach, and rake out leaves fire lanes (roads). A little bit boring, but, it was okay. Walden Pond is pretty big, you know you can hike around it, about a three-mile hike, three, three and a half miles.  

Develop any friendships out of that, I mean were other kids doing it, too, or were you working on your own?

Matt: I was working with a bunch of other guys, nobody quite my age, I was sort of young when I did that, I was 16 and the guys would all tease each other. No. And, there was a big crew of guys. Part of it was political appointments. Massachusetts was a very politically connected state, you’d get jobs for the summer and they were all, people who were connected to someone else. So, I worked there and I worked a little bit at a TB sanitarium. I was sometimes detailed out to a TB sanitarium to do similar grounds things. I liked that job a little better because they had better food and it was a smaller group.

What was your worst job ever? Was there any job that you just dread thinking about that to go back to do?

Matt: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I worked in North Carolina for a company that I’d just left a job I loved, one of the best jobs I’ve ever had, but we were taken over by another company and I’d left one day before they fired everybody at my level the next day. I missed getting canned by one day. But, I went from that job to a job where they had sixteen operating companies. I was general counsel. They had 525 lawsuits when I came there. I got it down to about 350. They had four guys in control and they didn’t necessarily agree with each other on anything. People would go out at break time and they would cry on the patio, they would just sob from the tension.

So to explain, what’ the tension and what’s the …

Matt: They were acquiring company after company. They were just picking them up and buying them. They weren’t really making sure that they were integrated. They failed to integrate their computer systems, their processes and procedures. No standard processes for paying claims or answering customer questions. They just were people who were sort of on a buying binge and so that meant that there was never an agreement on how you processed work, one of the advantages of the insurance companies, they try to do things in a very systematic way and they tweak it and they tweak it and they get better and better over time, so when you’re doing things, it’s a big machine running very smoothly. Well, this was a machine that was breaking down every half an hour and not only was it breaking down, then people didn’t know what tools you use to fix it. So, you were die-cutting the tools, making the tools, then fixing the machine. They had 70 percent turnover. To give you an idea, and they were also trying – they eventually went bankrupt. They were trying to go public doing initial public offering, too, but to give you an idea of how crazy it was, I went to lunch. I was gone for 15 minutes. I came back and I had 21 voice mails. That’s how I used to work from East Coast to West Coast. I have U.S. and Canada. And, I’d work my FedEx’s on the East Coast first and the FedEx’s that were going to the West Coast last. And, sometimes – we had offices in California, I’d run out of time on the East Coast and I’d fax them stuff so they could FedEx it from the West Coast and still make the FedEx deadline. And, this went on for two years. The guy who was the chief financial officer had a nervous breakdown. And, the people who were running it, it’s interesting what they say, why do you do things? You know, how do you get good at things? How do you get better at things? And, I think somebody was interviewing Keith Richards and he says, well, whatever you do, do it because you like it. Don’t do it for the money. These people were in it for the money, so that’s a really terrible experience.

And, you did it for two years? 

Matt: Two years, yeah. And, then I got laid off. I got terminated from the job. And, part of the reason I think they terminated me is they didn’t think I was mean enough. They were really nasty people.

Any bosses just kind of similar to the teachers, were there any bosses that you have really connected with or enjoyed working under?

Matt: I would say – I now have a business boss and legal boss. My business goes on the Canadian side now is probably the best guy I’ve ever worked with. Nicest person, most intelligent. He’s an actuary. Speaks two or three languages. Great in math. Patient. Will go through things with you carefully. I tend to be in just great sync with him. He’ll come up with ideas. I’ll have a variant of it. He’ll have a variant of my variant. And, the work that is being turned out is turning out quickly. It’s elegant, it’s well done. I actually feel like I am doing the best work I ever did in my life. And, I feel like I’m calling upon all the different things I’ve done in my career. And, you don’t do everything at once, you do things over a period of, you know, not only days, months, but years. Some years, you’re focusing more on one thing than another. All those things seem to be all coalescing again, centering and I’m using all of them. So, this current work experience is really good. There was a guy I worked for in Kansas City. Great guy to work for. Hand-picked team of senior staff officers and you had to go through a battery of psychological tests. The team of people loved each other, really did well, the company was doing well, and they we got – the company that owned us, they got in trouble, not us, and then they sold us to a local company, which came in and took the company from 330 to 30. But, that was – it was one of the best working experiences I ever had. I’d work a good day, but I really didn’t have to take a lot of work home at night. Fridays we’d get off at twelve. Lot of times we’d go and play golf. In Kansas City, I had a period of time that I worked hard, but compensation was good, house was good, liked the friends, and I had a lot of fun. I went to plays, went to baseball games, did stuff with neighbors. It was a really nice mix of things and this was a guy who wanted to make sure that if you’re working hard you’re really treated well. He was really good.

Any bosses that you didn’t like or whatever, don’t even need to name names, you can always just keep it.

Matt: Well, I had some bosses that I absolutely despised. The reason I left Maryland, the reason I left Rockville was I had – the guy who was a yeller and a screamer, he was just mean, he was mean as a junkyard dog. And, he actually tried to stop me from going, and with all that, I had my moments with him. I didn’t have a yelling and shouting match back, but before I left he took me out for a drink and he says, is there anything I can do to have you stay and I said no, no, I’m done. I’m moving on. And, that’s the other thing probably about – I’m very reticent to make changes in my life. I find it hard to make changes. I find it hard to get into change. But, with sufficient number of factors, I can change and I can make substantial change. I can change work and I can change where I live, and when you do that, it takes an enormous amount of energy to do it.

Sometimes the top stresses of life, divorce, death, or changing jobs is right there in the top five. So, what makes a good boss? If you were going to narrow it down to the top five reasons. What’s a good boss, his qualities or …

Matt: I’d say it’s almost like you would expect from a pilot of a plane, that emotional control, you don’t want the pilot getting on and saying, ah, I think we’ll be fine folks, uh, just hold on for a minute. You want somebody …

Steady? 

Matt: Yeah, emotionally steady would be the first thing. I would say second and it’s pretty common sense stuff, gets all the facts. 

Before making a judgment call?

Matt: Before making a judgment call, not a knee-jerk reactor and there’s another boss I had who was knee-jerk reactor. If something bad happened, it was like, well, why did something bad happen, make it go away immediately and bad stuff does happen, you can’t always make it go away immediately because there were five things that led up to it that nobody decided to fix before they all balled up together for a mess. So, I’d say emotional constancy. That doesn’t mean you can’t be emotional, but on a fairly emotional even keel. You get all the facts and information involved. I’d say the next thing is that I learned from one boss who was not my best boss, but, this was John Wade, I worked well with him (but it took a lot of work to do so). He generally got to the right decision. And, I think his intentions were good, but he would always say look beneath the surface of things and if it seemed – what he taught me is that if it seems that somebody is hanging back or not saying something in a meeting, and what they’ll tell you now and doesn’t seem to jibe with their body language and demeanor, then look further.

You worked well together and he told you to look beneath the surface?

Matt: Yeah, the third thing is one boss had told me to look beneath the surface, so, now if I’m working on something, and I feel like someone’s hanging back, I will talk to them outside of the meeting. I’ll talk to them separately or if people are disturbed about something, I’ll try and get them in some venue to try and draw them out and say, you know, you seem to have a concern about this. What is the concern, what is worrying you? And, also to know that if you don’t have a certain amount of enthusiasm for projects, they’re gonna die of their own weight. I’d say the third thing was – there’s a balance, you can overdo that and it becomes a conspiracy theory. For example, why did somebody say “hi” instead of “hello” to me today? What did they mean by saying “hi”? Were they trying to me more informal with me? I mean, you can over-think things, but to take things on the surface can be dangerous, too. So, I think I learned how to look behind the surface.

Do you think a sense of humor is important to be a good boss? Do you work with people that could see humor in things? And, let the tension go and laugh sometimes no matter how bad it getting or what’s going on?

Matt: Yeah, I certainly think humor is a great thing to diffuse tension, let things go by, and I think that gives people energy. I would say more important than humor is a sense of optimism.

Okay, meaning things are going to work out. 

Matt: Well, there was one guy and I didn’t work for him, he worked for another company, but he said, “We’ll be relentlessly rigorous as to the facts.” Okay. So, that would mean like, if the facts are bad, we’re not going to run away from them. We’re not going to skew them or make a bar graph that makes them look good. We’re going to brutally honest with the facts. But, he also said we’re going to be as optimistic as we can with what we have. So, I think sometimes what I found in companies, that people really care about each other and that’s great. I mean they try and save jobs for 10 people, with the result they sink a company of 100 people. I’ve seen that happen, I saw a company fire 100 people and if they had just been more realistic in their projections, it would have never happened. You always have some shrinkage if things don’t work or if things don’t work at the same performance levels and to imagine that you’re going to do that is just wishful thinking. So, I’d say emotionally stable or not that the one key thing is a sense of optimism, brutally look at the facts, and have a sense of humor. 

Do you think what makes a poor boss is just the opposite of everything you listed? What would come to mind of what makes a poor boss? That you don’t really enjoy working for?

Matt: Lack of emotional control. Slot machine management. You don’t know what they care about grows one minute to the next – they center on one thing and just totally flip out about it. And, I think people that are hyper-critical are poor bosses. I think the most important thing in a lot of organizations is to keep moving, keep momentum going, keep the basic stuff in play. And, then, I think in some organizations, people get bored. I mean, sometimes you can get bored with success, sometimes you’re having good success and people are just so bored that they’re just doing the same thing day in-day out. But, you’re being successful at it, so they, in my view in insurance companies, they take something what’s basically sound and make it a mess, you know insurance, it’s mathematically worked out. You need to sell a certain amount and you have a certain product and they tinker with these things that are working until they create a mess. But, at least the mess is entertaining to fix. And, so I’d say the boss that plays favorites is emotionally unstable and practices slot machine management, is a bad boss.

What about bosses that are unable to learn from their mistakes or even unable to admit a mistake. Did you have anyone like that?

Matt: Oh, yeah. Terrible. I mean, one of the worst things is you can’t learn from everything always going well all the time – one of the things I‘ve learned from work is, and I think I’ve learned the most in life – I’ve learned the most from critical events. You probably learn more from failure than you do from success – at least it sticks in your mind more than success. So, sometimes you should celebrate your successes, too. I think a good boss celebrates successes also, says, “good job.” It doesn’t have to be dramatic, nice note, or something like that. But, yet, they can’t admit when something fails and why it failed. And, that won’t do – the best thing you could do – something we all should do, is do a critique of something which failed. That’s how you get it. Really, I think, success happens incrementally. I don’t think you get better all of a sudden. Some people think, I’ll never be creative enough, well, you just have to – it’s like doing anything around the house, like you cook a meal, or how you do something, you just have to do a little better each time. Just a little bit.

I know a lot of people – just challenge yourself, instead of competing with others at work, compete with the old you.

Matt: Yes, compete with the old you. There was an article in Popular Science that they have a game to make a better you. You know, if you spend more time doing this, you get so many points, and you make it a game with yourself. 

 

[End of interview for Matt and Jeff, July 2012]

 

[Transcribed by Karen M. Rayman, August 2012]

 

[Revised  September 25, 2012 & December 18, 2012]